Comments on: The B-25 that Crashed Into the Empire State Building http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/ A collection of Damn Interesting things Sat, 11 Feb 2012 01:49:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: BigRed http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-26554 BigRed Mon, 20 Jun 2011 01:59:16 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-26554 My grandfather W. Paul Dearing was the unfortunate soul on the ledge below the crash site. My grandmother who died in 1993 hated the book called "The Sky is Falling" as rubbish and sensationalist garbage. Col. Smith served his country with heroic distinction, and nobody in my mother's family ever said a single bad word about him. He was a war hero who made a terrible mistake that anyone could have made. I do not know why my grandfather did not serve in the military in WWII, but he was doing his part for his country by doing his job. It is just mere coincidence that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, I do not believe as the famous film newsreel of the time stated that he was blown out by the blast. It is believed that he survived the initial blast but may have jumped out the hole in the building out of panic &/or shock. This is the price we pay for freedom from tyranny of those like Hitler & Tojo: our family members gave their lives for the cause of victory. Let freedom ring! Praise be to God-Father, Son, & Holy Ghost! Rev. Deacon Edward Becker Independent Anglican Church, Canada Synod St. George's Pro-Cathedral, Niagara Falls NY http://www.independentanglicanchurch.ca My grandfather W. Paul Dearing was the unfortunate soul on the ledge below the crash site. My grandmother who died in 1993 hated the book called “The Sky is Falling” as rubbish and sensationalist garbage. Col. Smith served his country with heroic distinction, and nobody in my mother’s family ever said a single bad word about him. He was a war hero who made a terrible mistake that anyone could have made. I do not know why my grandfather did not serve in the military in WWII, but he was doing his part for his country by doing his job. It is just mere coincidence that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Also, I do not believe as the famous film newsreel of the time stated that he was blown out by the blast. It is believed that he survived the initial blast but may have jumped out the hole in the building out of panic &/or shock. This is the price we pay for freedom from tyranny of those like Hitler & Tojo: our family members gave their lives for the cause of victory. Let freedom ring! Praise be to God-Father, Son, & Holy Ghost!

Rev. Deacon Edward Becker
Independent Anglican Church, Canada Synod
St. George’s Pro-Cathedral, Niagara Falls NY
http://www.independentanglicanchurch.ca

]]> By: Richard Solensky http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-25977 Richard Solensky Wed, 14 Apr 2010 22:16:54 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-25977 Magnesium is used in aircraft when alloyed with other metals. It is very lightweight, lighter even than aluminum. These alloys are very resistant to corrosion and can be easily cast into a wide variety of shapes. And by the time you get hot enough to ignite the magnesium, a lot of other things in the aircraft will already be burning... I think you misread the speed. It's in feet per second, not miles per hour. 770 feet per second = 525 miles per hour. Magnesium is used in aircraft when alloyed with other metals. It is very lightweight, lighter even than aluminum. These alloys are very resistant to corrosion and can be easily cast into a wide variety of shapes. And by the time you get hot enough to ignite the magnesium, a lot of other things in the aircraft will already be burning…

I think you misread the speed. It’s in feet per second, not miles per hour. 770 feet per second = 525 miles per hour.

]]> By: johnb3491 http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-25972 johnb3491 Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:50:28 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-25972 [quote]Engineer1 said: "There are mountains of documentation on the effects of aircraft crashes. Thousands have been tested in mock and simulated realtime test. The fuel used by the Boeing 757 is type JET A-1. It’s temperature is known to burn at a maxium of about 1500 degrees fahrenheit. Steel is known to melt at way above that temperature, about 3000 degrees fahreneit. This of course would be under perfect and control conditions. The WTC was struck by a 125 ton bullet going about 770 feet per second, made of basically out of two metals; aluminum and magnesium with copper and other alloyed metals thrown in. The heat from the impact, friction and compression of air within the aircraft compartment alone would be enough to ignite these metals. Magnesium and Aluminum once started burning burns hotter than jet fuel, about the same temperature of thermite (4000-5000 degrees fahrenheit). The thermite effect would easily melt steel girders. With about 64 tons of burning aircraft metal compacted into the center of one of the WTC towers one would believe structural damage like that occured on 9/11 would be plausible. A simple test would prove this."[/quote] I need some coherent, contiguous info here. My understanding is that magnesium is usefull as an incindiary. What is this nearly impossible to extinguish substance doing in aircraft? What is it's purpose? And 770 mph? That is greater than the speed of sound. The planes were flying horizontal when they struck. In a dive, maybe they could. [quote]Engineer1 said: “There are mountains of documentation on the effects of aircraft crashes. Thousands have been tested in mock and simulated realtime test. The fuel used by the Boeing 757 is type JET A-1. It’s temperature is known to burn at a maxium of about 1500 degrees fahrenheit. Steel is known to melt at way above that temperature, about 3000 degrees fahreneit. This of course would be under perfect and control conditions. The WTC was struck by a 125 ton bullet going about 770 feet per second, made of basically out of two metals; aluminum and magnesium with copper and other alloyed metals thrown in. The heat from the impact, friction and compression of air within the aircraft compartment alone would be enough to ignite these metals. Magnesium and Aluminum once started burning burns hotter than jet fuel, about the same temperature of thermite (4000-5000 degrees fahrenheit). The thermite effect would easily melt steel girders. With about 64 tons of burning aircraft metal compacted into the center of one of the WTC towers one would believe structural damage like that occured on 9/11 would be plausible. A simple test would prove this.”[/quote]

I need some coherent, contiguous info here. My understanding is that magnesium is usefull as an incindiary. What is this nearly impossible to extinguish substance doing in aircraft? What is it’s purpose?

And 770 mph? That is greater than the speed of sound. The planes were flying horizontal when they struck. In a dive, maybe they could.

]]> By: tunatuna http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-25686 tunatuna Sun, 24 Jan 2010 23:50:20 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-25686 Someone is mistaken about where this photograph of the gaping hole was shot. Actually, it's not possible to hang out a window on the 90th floor of the Empire State Bldg and reach out far enough to capture this shot of where the plane hit on the 79th floor. Why? Because the uppermost floor of occupied office space is the 85th floor. The main observation deck is on the 86th floor. the 90th floor is on the uppermost section on the building which is nothing more than an elevator shaft and a stairwell to the 102nd floor. it is stepped back at least 15 or 20 feet from the part of the building where the plane hit. Even if those windows opened (on the shaft; they don't) no one could have leaned out far enough to get a shot looking down to the 79th floor. Therefore, this shot had to be taken from the 85th floor or lower. John F. Someone is mistaken about where this photograph of the gaping hole was shot. Actually, it’s not possible to hang out a window on the 90th floor of the Empire State Bldg and reach out far enough to capture this shot of where the plane hit on the 79th floor. Why? Because the uppermost floor of occupied office space is the 85th floor. The main observation deck is on the 86th floor. the 90th floor is on the uppermost section on the building which is nothing more than an elevator shaft and a stairwell to the 102nd floor. it is stepped back at least 15 or 20 feet from the part of the building where the plane hit. Even if those windows opened (on the shaft; they don’t) no one could have leaned out far enough to get a shot looking down to the 79th floor. Therefore, this shot had to be taken from the 85th floor or lower. John F.

]]> By: DavidN http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-24662 DavidN Thu, 25 Jun 2009 03:52:34 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-24662 My mother, Ruth V. Norris, maiden name Leiman, was there at the Empire State Building with her best friend Martina Yockel. She was visiting New York from Baltimore, where she was a student at the Towson State Teachers College, (now Towson State University). She was twenty - four years old at the time, and single. She told me the story, that her and Martina had entered the building to go to the observation deck. They were told by the attendant that, do to the severe fog, they would not be permitted to proceed to the top of the building. Very disapointed, they proceeded out onto the sidewalk. Just as they left the building the plane crashed. They ran and ran away, my mother stated that she saw the building swaying from side to side. If the attendant had let them get in the elevator, they might have been killed. I went with my mother in 1972 to New York, on the B & O railroad, (before AMTRAK), one footnote , this was right after Hurricane Agnes hit the entire Eastern Seaboard, so there were lawn mowers and garden sheds, debris, along the tracks. The flood waters had not receded along the Susquehana River in PA. Back to the story, we finally went to the Observation level, and I never thought that she might have had post traumatic stress, but it was fine. I have a small replica of the building that I purchased on the observation deck with my memorabilia collection. She is now deceased, but we did see a special on CNN on the 40th anniversary of the event. I am glad she did get to finally see the view. Note, we did go to the 1964 World's Fair, but did not go into Manhattan. I went up in the two yellow towers from "Men in Black"very scary . I am lucky that my parent's took me with them everywhere. DavidN. My mother, Ruth V. Norris, maiden name Leiman, was there at the Empire State Building with her best friend Martina Yockel. She was visiting New York from Baltimore, where she was a student at the Towson State Teachers College, (now Towson State University). She was twenty – four years old at the time, and single. She told me the story, that her and Martina had entered the building to go to the observation deck. They were told by the attendant that, do to the severe fog, they would not be permitted to proceed to the top of the building. Very disapointed, they proceeded out onto the sidewalk. Just as they left the building the plane crashed. They ran and ran away, my mother stated that she saw the building swaying from side to side. If the attendant had let them get in the elevator, they might have been killed. I went with my mother in 1972 to New York, on the B & O railroad, (before AMTRAK), one footnote , this was right after Hurricane Agnes hit the entire Eastern Seaboard, so there were lawn mowers and garden sheds, debris, along the tracks. The flood waters had not receded along the Susquehana River in PA. Back to the story, we finally went to the Observation level, and I never thought that she might have had post traumatic stress, but it was fine. I have a small replica of the building that I purchased on the observation deck with my memorabilia collection. She is now deceased, but we did see a special on CNN on the 40th anniversary of the event. I am glad she did get to finally see the view. Note, we did go to the 1964 World’s Fair, but did not go into Manhattan. I went up in the two yellow towers from “Men in Black”very scary . I am lucky that my parent’s took me with them everywhere. DavidN.

]]> By: welshy http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-19029 welshy Wed, 19 Dec 2007 18:31:05 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-19029 Really? I'd be willing to bet that the ESB, if it were hit by one 747 at that speed(540 knotts), would not stand long enough for a single person to get clear. The Empire State Building would not have suffered a total collapse like the WTC did. First you have to understand the construction of both buildings. The Empire State Building is built like a giant erector set with the steel beams encased in brick and concreate. The massive weight of the building is supported from the ground up unlike the WTC in which each floor supported itself by way of trusses that connected from the inner core beams to the external wall beams. The Empire State may have suffered failure on the floors hit and worse case scenario the top may have toppled off, but it would not have totally collapsed. Also here are a few points to consider: When the Empire State Building was built the steel used to make the beams was thicker, therefore the beams are stronger. There are far more beams throughout the structure so if several failed the weight would be distributed. Concreate is a far better fire retardant than spray on foam. Lastly, this building was built to last a minimum of 200 years. I have visited the WTC, Sears Tower, Hancok Tower, Seattle Space Needle, Prudential Center in Boston, Empire State Building, & Rockerfellar Center. The ESB weighs 365,000 tons, The Sears Tower 220,000, Hancock Tower 180,000. I suggest you research and understand how each building is built before you comment on how a building would stand up to such a catostrophic event like the WTC endured on 09/11. Really? I’d be willing to bet that the ESB, if it were hit by one 747 at that speed(540 knotts), would not stand long enough for a single person to get clear.

The Empire State Building would not have suffered a total collapse like the WTC did.
First you have to understand the construction of both buildings.
The Empire State Building is built like a giant erector set with the steel beams encased in brick and concreate.
The massive weight of the building is supported from the ground up unlike the WTC in which each floor supported itself by way of trusses that connected from the inner core beams to the external wall beams.
The Empire State may have suffered failure on the floors hit and worse case scenario the top may have toppled off, but it would not have totally collapsed.

Also here are a few points to consider:
When the Empire State Building was built the steel used to make the beams was thicker, therefore the beams are stronger.
There are far more beams throughout the structure so if several failed the weight would be distributed.
Concreate is a far better fire retardant than spray on foam.

Lastly, this building was built to last a minimum of 200 years.
I have visited the WTC, Sears Tower, Hancok Tower, Seattle Space Needle, Prudential Center in Boston, Empire State Building, & Rockerfellar Center.

The ESB weighs 365,000 tons, The Sears Tower 220,000, Hancock Tower 180,000.

I suggest you research and understand how each building is built before you comment on how a building would stand up to such a catostrophic event like the WTC endured on 09/11.

]]> By: Charlie Had. http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-18040 Charlie Had. Sun, 28 Oct 2007 01:10:28 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-18040 Bill Smith was my mother's 1st cousin. We lived in Mobile, AL at the time and I remember our family going to Birmingham for his funeral. Bill is buried in Elmwood Cemetary, Birmingham. A book was written about the incident. The title is "The Sky is Falling." It contains many photos and more speculation on what actually happened. He was an experienced pilot and had flown many mission in Europe during the war. Charlie Had. Bill Smith was my mother’s 1st cousin. We lived in Mobile, AL at the time and I remember our family going to Birmingham for his funeral. Bill is buried in Elmwood Cemetary, Birmingham. A book was written about the incident. The title is “The Sky is Falling.” It contains many photos and more speculation on what actually happened. He was an experienced pilot and had flown many mission in Europe during the war.
Charlie Had.

]]> By: jep http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-9798 jep Mon, 06 Nov 2006 22:19:58 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-9798 <p>Too much nonsense on this page. The statement "speed increases mass" is technically correct but completely ridiculous in this context. </p><p>Chemical burning means to react with O2. Magnesium cannot burn without a source of O2. Pure magnesium certainly cannot burn in total vacuum. Pure magnesium cannot "create it's own oxygen" during combustion. I've read that it can burn in the presence of CO2 rather than O2 but I can't confirm that. It might be that if it burns hot enough it can break the CO2 into C and O2 and then burn with the O2 or something. </p> Too much nonsense on this page. The statement “speed increases mass” is technically correct but completely ridiculous in this context.

Chemical burning means to react with O2. Magnesium cannot burn without a source of O2. Pure magnesium certainly cannot burn in total vacuum. Pure magnesium cannot “create it’s own oxygen” during combustion. I’ve read that it can burn in the presence of CO2 rather than O2 but I can’t confirm that. It might be that if it burns hot enough it can break the CO2 into C and O2 and then burn with the O2 or something.

]]> By: Janthony http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-8520 Janthony Fri, 08 Sep 2006 20:04:28 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-8520 <p><span class='quote'>GrawneyMan said: "Once magnesium starts burning it doesn't stop without great effort… I've even heard it will continue to burn when completely immersed in water."</span></p><p>The truth of the matter is that when magnesium starts to burn, the ONLY thing that can stop it is the total loss of material to burn. No temperature, substance or technique can stop the immolation. Magnesium can burn underwater because it creates it's own oxygen during combustion, and because of that can burn quite merrily in a total vacuum...say, outer space!</p> GrawneyMan said: “Once magnesium starts burning it doesn’t stop without great effort… I’ve even heard it will continue to burn when completely immersed in water.”

The truth of the matter is that when magnesium starts to burn, the ONLY thing that can stop it is the total loss of material to burn. No temperature, substance or technique can stop the immolation. Magnesium can burn underwater because it creates it’s own oxygen during combustion, and because of that can burn quite merrily in a total vacuum…say, outer space!

]]> By: Engineer1 http://www.damninteresting.com/the-b-25-that-crashed-into-the-empire-state-building/#comment-8270 Engineer1 Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:40:53 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=179#comment-8270 <p>I wouldn't call it a free fall. The structure was weakened through several floors. The weight above pushed on the weakened areas below. Inch by inch, foot by foot the tons of material above began to move downward. Speed increases mass and the faster it moved the greater the mass became. This mass increased until the building structure below could not support the moving mass above and complete failure occured. It was gravity, momentum and weight that brought down the buildings. It's a wonder that the buildings didn't immediately collapse from the impact of a 125 ton explosive bullet.</p> I wouldn’t call it a free fall. The structure was weakened through several floors. The weight above pushed on the weakened areas below. Inch by inch, foot by foot the tons of material above began to move downward. Speed increases mass and the faster it moved the greater the mass became. This mass increased until the building structure below could not support the moving mass above and complete failure occured. It was gravity, momentum and weight that brought down the buildings. It’s a wonder that the buildings didn’t immediately collapse from the impact of a 125 ton explosive bullet.

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