Comments on: The Seizing of the Pueblo http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/ A collection of legitimately fascinating information culled from the past, present, and anticipated future. Tue, 22 May 2012 01:30:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: BenKinsey http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-23451 BenKinsey Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:48:12 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-23451 So our govt. did absolutely nothing, they even let them keep our ship wat a bunch of garbage! Thats so fuckin weak. They couldn't come up with a plan for 80 somethin days. Thats enraging even all these years later. So our govt. did absolutely nothing, they even let them keep our ship wat a bunch of garbage! Thats so fuckin weak. They couldn’t come up with a plan for 80 somethin days. Thats enraging even all these years later.

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By: Anthropositor http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-21179 Anthropositor Mon, 28 Apr 2008 18:08:15 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-21179 In war the need for secrecy is obvious. But at the same time, clear-cut, unambiguous information is essential to prevent disasters such as this one. Under the best of circumstances, confusion and error on the battlefield play a pivotal part in the final outcome. Often secrecy is justified with the single phrase "need to know." Some faceless person, who will never be assigned any responsibility for the decision, decided that there was no reason for Commander Bucher to know of the clandestine incursion of North Korean assassins into South Korea on the previous day. Had Commander Bucher been given this information, he might have been much more alert to the possibility of such an attack on his vessel. With such knowledge, he might well have taken additional measures to assure that his guns would not be "iced up" to the point that he was helpless in the water. I can only assume that he was anticipating the "routine" end of the mission, and the return to friendlier waters. In this, clearly he erred. For this error, only partly the fault of Bucher, he and his crew paid dearly. Clearly the Pueblo and its' crew were operating "in harms way." They were spying. They were doing so as if it were a routine matter. Therein lies part of the problem. Spying is done continuously throughout the world. It is natural for those who spy, to often consider it as routine, just business as usual. It is NEVER routine. Now I want to bring up a similar incident which was used as an excuse to escalate a war, causing great carnage and death, which could easily have been prevented. I recently had an extended interchange on another thread with someone I have concluded is a troll. I erred in allowing it to go on as long as it did. It was, as far as I can tell, an absolute waste of time, made worse by the fact that I became exasperated and eventually got pretty caustic and sarcastic in my responses. This is precisely what a troll is looking for. I have not recently been back to that other thread. I actually invited the readership to act as jurors in an attempt to foreclose further interminable debate. At my last look, there were two or three votes against me, perhaps because of my eventual sarcasm to the individual involved. It is my custom to use very few links, preferring to say what I have to say myself. But considering the lack of interest and participation in that other dispute, which after all, affects the entire readership, I have decided to just let Walter Cronkite, along with some recorded conversations between President Johnson and his principal lackey, Defense Secretary McNamara, do the talking on this one. It had to do with the Gulf of Tonkin, a trumped up crisis which was used as an excuse to escalate the Vietnam War. The following is an audio link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3810724 Listen with particular attention to the details of "Plan 34A," a completely covert activity with no congressional oversight whatsoever. This was a deliberate provocation, an escalation of the war which was entirely unjustified by the facts. It is worthy of note that this incident was about three and a half years before Pueblo, and that Johnson used the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, based on error, lies, and deception made possible by secrecy not just from the general public, but from Congress as well. The Tonkin Resolution not only precipitated the premeditated escalation of the Vietnam War, it was central to his rationale for the later Pueblo activities. In war the need for secrecy is obvious. But at the same time, clear-cut, unambiguous information is essential to prevent disasters such as this one.

Under the best of circumstances, confusion and error on the battlefield play a pivotal part in the final outcome.

Often secrecy is justified with the single phrase “need to know.” Some faceless person, who will never be assigned any responsibility for the decision, decided that there was no reason for Commander Bucher to know of the clandestine incursion of North Korean assassins into South Korea on the previous day. Had Commander Bucher been given this information, he might have been much more alert to the possibility of such an attack on his vessel. With such knowledge, he might well have taken additional measures to assure that his guns would not be “iced up” to the point that he was helpless in the water. I can only assume that he was anticipating the “routine” end of the mission, and the return to friendlier waters. In this, clearly he erred. For this error, only partly the fault of Bucher, he and his crew paid dearly.

Clearly the Pueblo and its’ crew were operating “in harms way.” They were spying. They were doing so as if it were a routine matter. Therein lies part of the problem. Spying is done continuously throughout the world. It is natural for those who spy, to often consider it as routine, just business as usual. It is NEVER routine.

Now I want to bring up a similar incident which was used as an excuse to escalate a war, causing great carnage and death, which could easily have been prevented.

I recently had an extended interchange on another thread with someone I have concluded is a troll. I erred in allowing it to go on as long as it did. It was, as far as I can tell, an absolute waste of time, made worse by the fact that I became exasperated and eventually got pretty caustic and sarcastic in my responses. This is precisely what a troll is looking for. I have not recently been back to that other thread. I actually invited the readership to act as jurors in an attempt to foreclose further interminable debate. At my last look, there were two or three votes against me, perhaps because of my eventual sarcasm to the individual involved.

It is my custom to use very few links, preferring to say what I have to say myself. But considering the lack of interest and participation in that other dispute, which after all, affects the entire readership, I have decided to just let Walter Cronkite, along with some recorded conversations between President Johnson and his principal lackey, Defense Secretary McNamara, do the talking on this one. It had to do with the Gulf of Tonkin, a trumped up crisis which was used as an excuse to escalate the Vietnam War. The following is an audio link:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=3810724

Listen with particular attention to the details of “Plan 34A,” a completely covert activity with no congressional oversight whatsoever. This was a deliberate provocation, an escalation of the war which was entirely unjustified by the facts.

It is worthy of note that this incident was about three and a half years before Pueblo, and that Johnson used the Tonkin Gulf Resolution, based on error, lies, and deception made possible by secrecy not just from the general public, but from Congress as well. The Tonkin Resolution not only precipitated the premeditated escalation of the Vietnam War, it was central to his rationale for the later Pueblo activities.

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By: PickledEel http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-17308 PickledEel Mon, 17 Sep 2007 16:18:57 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-17308 This is going to get lost all the way down here but a very interesting comment made by the one of the Pueblo's executives after their release was that the crew extending their finger was a message intended for their own service - who the crew felt had set them up and allowed the capture of the vessel. Their theory was that the government wanted certain ciphers and crypto to fall into Soviet hands, which would have allowed the US to read them for years later. An interesting theory and worth reading their accounts. The crew certainly felt this was one explanation for all the things that were out of the ordinary about this voyage - and that was before they got rounded up by the Koreans. The Captain for one thought there was another agenda which he knew nothing about. This is going to get lost all the way down here but a very interesting comment made by the one of the Pueblo’s executives after their release was that the crew extending their finger was a message intended for their own service – who the crew felt had set them up and allowed the capture of the vessel. Their theory was that the government wanted certain ciphers and crypto to fall into Soviet hands, which would have allowed the US to read them for years later. An interesting theory and worth reading their accounts. The crew certainly felt this was one explanation for all the things that were out of the ordinary about this voyage – and that was before they got rounded up by the Koreans. The Captain for one thought there was another agenda which he knew nothing about.

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By: mitch449 http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-13796 mitch449 Mon, 02 Apr 2007 08:13:19 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-13796 <p>I just finished watching the story of these BRAVE MEN from the Pueblo!!!!! God Bless them all and shame on the N Koreans for beating them!!!!!!</p> I just finished watching the story of these BRAVE MEN from the Pueblo!!!!! God Bless them all and shame on the N Koreans for beating them!!!!!!

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By: danielbb http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-13795 danielbb Mon, 02 Apr 2007 07:55:59 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-13795 <p>This sounds very familar recently ay!!!!!!</p> This sounds very familar recently ay!!!!!!

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By: orc_jr http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-11985 orc_jr Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:12:19 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-11985 <p><span class='quote'>crispi said: "They should have sank the ship. Just like the pilot of the U.S. spy plane that collided with a Chinese fighter jet, the captain made the wrong decision. He opted to save the lives of his crew at the expense of our national security. If he'd turned an ran, and then been captured, that would've been respectable. But, to willingly turn your ship over to the enemy is unforgivable. How many American lives were lost due to the compromised intel.</span></p><p><span class='quote'> It's a very cold way to look at things. But, spying is a deadly business. You get caught, you die. You know the rules going into the game."</span></p><p> the lives of 82 men are worth far more than some encryption devices. plans and codes can be changed.</p> crispi said: “They should have sank the ship. Just like the pilot of the U.S. spy plane that collided with a Chinese fighter jet, the captain made the wrong decision. He opted to save the lives of his crew at the expense of our national security. If he’d turned an ran, and then been captured, that would’ve been respectable. But, to willingly turn your ship over to the enemy is unforgivable. How many American lives were lost due to the compromised intel.


It’s a very cold way to look at things. But, spying is a deadly business. You get caught, you die. You know the rules going into the game.”

the lives of 82 men are worth far more than some encryption devices. plans and codes can be changed.

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By: Aero http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-11392 Aero Sat, 30 Dec 2006 00:12:06 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-11392 <p><span class='quote'>G said: "Stupid Korea… Shoulda just blasted em and got our men and ship back!"</span></p><p> Excuse me. I am South Korean. Thank you very much for the comment *being sarcastic if you didn't know* you prejudiced idiot who relies on stereotypes. P.S. If you knew about Korea you would know it is only the North *government thats bad, not the people. Even though I am not from North Korea.</p> G said: “Stupid Korea… Shoulda just blasted em and got our men and ship back!”

Excuse me. I am South Korean. Thank you very much for the comment *being sarcastic if you didn’t know* you prejudiced idiot who relies on stereotypes.

P.S. If you knew about Korea you would know it is only the North *government thats bad, not the people. Even though I am not from North Korea.

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By: Radiatidon http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-11060 Radiatidon Thu, 14 Dec 2006 20:16:14 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-11060 <p><span class='quote'>cornerpocket said: "My understanding is that "International Waters" is not universally accepted, or even generally. The United States and NATO have such a designation (as probably does SEATO), but North Korea says 12 miles out belongs to them. We only recognize three. "</span></p><p> At the time of the incident the North Koreans were claiming fifty miles not twelve. The USSR was only claiming twelve, while the United States was claiming three. The US did recognize the twelve nautical miles claimed by the Communist states and stayed outside of that limit. But as I mentioned before, not even the USSR recognized their buddies the North Koreans stated fifty mile limit. So here is how the nautical limit came to be in a nutshell. In the Eighteenth century, the distance a cannon ball could fly (3 miles) determined Territorial waters. This kept individual nations from controlling the open seas allowing fair trade for all nations. After the USS Pueblo incident the limit was increased from the antiqued three-mile limit to twelve miles in the United States. Without research I am sure that other countries still on the old limit followed suit. In a general assembly of the United Nations during the 1980s, the LOSC was adopted which lays out the current rules. This has been ratified by 149 nations as of April of 2006. Now a country can claim two hundred nautical miles offshore but only for an exclusive economic zone. All land within this zone must be claimable by that country without incurrence of another countries claims. This only gives that country exclusive right to exploration and resources. This cannot restrict any other countries the right of innocent passage through the EEZ. Next there is the potential territorial limit of twelve nautical miles. Within this area the country has jurisdiction, but only to a point because of the right of innocent passage. The LOSC states: 1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases: (a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State; (b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea; (c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or (d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances. Finally there is the potential contiguous zone. President Clinton increased the old twelve nautical limits in 1999 to twenty-four miles. Within this twenty-four nautical mile the country is within its right to stop and inspect vessels that may have violated reasonable local laws within that country’s territorial limit of twelve nautical miles. Monitoring electromagnetic transmissions does not constitute a violation of any law. Interfering in those transmissions on the other hand, is a violation. Any actions during peacetime above and beyond this wording are in violation and are considered piracy.</p> cornerpocket said: “My understanding is that “International Waters” is not universally accepted, or even generally. The United States and NATO have such a designation (as probably does SEATO), but North Korea says 12 miles out belongs to them. We only recognize three. “

At the time of the incident the North Koreans were claiming fifty miles not twelve. The USSR was only claiming twelve, while the United States was claiming three. The US did recognize the twelve nautical miles claimed by the Communist states and stayed outside of that limit. But as I mentioned before, not even the USSR recognized their buddies the North Koreans stated fifty mile limit.

So here is how the nautical limit came to be in a nutshell.

In the Eighteenth century, the distance a cannon ball could fly (3 miles) determined Territorial waters. This kept individual nations from controlling the open seas allowing fair trade for all nations.

After the USS Pueblo incident the limit was increased from the antiqued three-mile limit to twelve miles in the United States. Without research I am sure that other countries still on the old limit followed suit.

In a general assembly of the United Nations during the 1980s, the LOSC was adopted which lays out the current rules. This has been ratified by 149 nations as of April of 2006.

Now a country can claim two hundred nautical miles offshore but only for an exclusive economic zone. All land within this zone must be claimable by that country without incurrence of another countries claims. This only gives that country exclusive right to exploration and resources. This cannot restrict any other countries the right of innocent passage through the EEZ.

Next there is the potential territorial limit of twelve nautical miles. Within this area the country has jurisdiction, but only to a point because of the right of innocent passage. The LOSC states:
1. The criminal jurisdiction of the coastal State should not be exercised on board a foreign ship passing through the territorial sea to arrest any person or to conduct any investigation in connection with any crime committed on board the ship during its passage, save only in the following cases:
(a) if the consequences of the crime extend to the coastal State;
(b) if the crime is of a kind to disturb the peace of the country or the good order of the territorial sea;
(c) if the assistance of the local authorities has been requested by the master of the ship or by a diplomatic agent or consular officer of the flag State; or
(d) if such measures are necessary for the suppression of illicit traffic in narcotic drugs or psychotropic substances.

Finally there is the potential contiguous zone. President Clinton increased the old twelve nautical limits in 1999 to twenty-four miles. Within this twenty-four nautical mile the country is within its right to stop and inspect vessels that may have violated reasonable local laws within that country’s territorial limit of twelve nautical miles. Monitoring electromagnetic transmissions does not constitute a violation of any law. Interfering in those transmissions on the other hand, is a violation.

Any actions during peacetime above and beyond this wording are in violation and are considered piracy.

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By: cornerpocket http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-11042 cornerpocket Thu, 14 Dec 2006 03:01:27 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-11042 <p>My understanding is that "International Waters" is not universally accepted, or even generally. The United States and NATO have such a designation (as probably does SEATO), but North Korea says 12 miles out belongs to them. We only recognize three. Soooo, it kinda depends on whose definition of terms is being touted, theirs or ours. Most international disputes are of the same ilk, typically combined with who has the biggest guns. In any case, all the stuff the North Koreans collected off the Pueblo were encryption devices, sort of industrial size decoder rings that have no value unless it is to decipher coded messages. Since the US immediately scrapped all the compromised devices and created brand new devices, there weren't any real sacrifices, other than the expense of making new toys and the embarrassment of having the Soviets getting to play with the ones we lost to the N. Koreans.</p> My understanding is that “International Waters” is not universally accepted, or even generally. The United States and NATO have such a designation (as probably does SEATO), but North Korea says 12 miles out belongs to them. We only recognize three. Soooo, it kinda depends on whose definition of terms is being touted, theirs or ours. Most international disputes are of the same ilk, typically combined with who has the biggest guns. In any case, all the stuff the North Koreans collected off the Pueblo were encryption devices, sort of industrial size decoder rings that have no value unless it is to decipher coded messages. Since the US immediately scrapped all the compromised devices and created brand new devices, there weren’t any real sacrifices, other than the expense of making new toys and the embarrassment of having the Soviets getting to play with the ones we lost to the N. Koreans.

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By: Radiatidon http://www.damninteresting.com/the-seizing-of-the-pueblo/#comment-11028 Radiatidon Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:05:11 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=588#comment-11028 <p>In order to see it, you need the free google earth download -- http://earth.google.com/ . The web version does not have access yet to the higher rez pictures at this time.</p> In order to see it, you need the free google earth download — http://earth.google.com/ . The web version does not have access yet to the higher rez pictures at this time.

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