Comments on: The Six-Stroke Engine http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/ A collection of Damn Interesting things Tue, 07 Feb 2012 21:45:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: igmothemagus http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-26772 igmothemagus Fri, 23 Sep 2011 14:34:41 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-26772 You don't use a LOT of water in the cylinder at once. By limiting the amount of water you limit the amount of steam (and pressure) to something that the walls can handle safely. You don’t use a LOT of water in the cylinder at once. By limiting the amount of water you limit the amount of steam (and pressure) to something that the walls can handle safely.

]]> By: apoorva http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-26768 apoorva Wed, 21 Sep 2011 06:34:24 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-26768 it has been said that steam will expand to 1600 times its volume then how could the cylinder walls be able to bear such high pressure???? plz leave your answers if any of you have... it has been said that steam will expand to 1600 times its volume then how could the cylinder walls be able to bear such high pressure????
plz leave your answers if any of you have…

]]> By: gbirds http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-26066 gbirds Thu, 03 Jun 2010 02:05:49 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-26066 Dear Steam power inventors; 06-02-2010 I found an idea about a “Hybrid Steam Six Cycle Engine” by Bruce Crower in “The Best Inventions Of 2007” on the Internet. The present “Gulf Oil Spill” has set me off again to try to get a proto-type engine built of a hybrid steam engine. I have been writing in my journals for 30 years about a conversion I wanted to make to the gas guzzling V-8 engines. My idea has been to use two outside cylinders on one side as gas cylinders without modification. The other side inside cylinders would also be used as gas cylinders without modification. These four cylinders would be modern fuel injected with all normal computer controls. The engine must be run on these four cylinders until proper block and head temperatures are achieved. Then the four remaining cylinders would be run as two stroke units being powered by “flashsteam” injection at top dead center of the steam cylinders. The exhaust from each gas cylinder would go out of its normal exhaust port and loop around to its adjacent steam cylinder old exhaust port. The old exhaust valve and seat in the steam cylinder will be replaced with a “heat sink” which extends into the old combustion chamber and thereby replacing it. The other side of the “heat sink” will have fins on it extending up through a hole milled in the head which replaced the old exhaust valve. A stainless steel tube will be press fitted in that hole which holds that “heat sink” essentially blocking any flow into the steam cylinder. But the exhaust gas from the adjacent gas cylinder will flow through a side hole in that SS tube with the fins of the “heat sink” protruding upward. This new exhaust tube will have to come out of a hole cut in the old valve cover. There will be two such holes in the old valve covers directly in line with the replaced old exhaust valves. The original intake valves of the converted cylinders will become the new exhaust valves for the new steam cylinders. They must be controlled by a special cam shaft which has a double lobe for each of the new steam exhaust valves. This control will be to open the steam exhaust valve at bottom dead center and close it on top dead center using two new lobes on that cam position. There will be four such new double lobe cam positions. The original exhaust lobes for those cylinders will not be used. A new simplified intake manifold must be fabricated to provide normal injector placement and connection to the throttle body for the gas cylinders. A new manifold from the original intake holes on the steam cylinders which are now steam exhaust holes will be joined to the new SS gas exhaust tubes coming out of the valve covers which will mix the spent steam with the gas exhaust to be outputted to the atmosphere through normal modern exhaust systems. A computer control of the “flashsteam” injectors must be provided. The idea of using a “Corn Burner” as a heat source has been modified by using the waste heat from the standard internal combustion engine. I am not mixing water or steam into the gas cylinders. The gas cylinders will be unchanged physically or in their normal operation; just their exhaust will be diverted a bit. Limiting some of the water cooling around the new steam cylinder and head should be done to retain their heat. The “flashsteam” injector may be the proper way to run the steam cylinder. I have wanted to make what I call my “Hybrid Steam Engine” for years. Every time the price of fuel goes up, I get more interested in its development. Now the fuel price has pushed me to accomplish my goal. But I do not feel the idea or which could be an invention needs to be held in private for financial gain. I have told many people about the idea without any action. Now with the Internet, maybe this idea will catch the eye of people of the World and not be squashed by the oil companies. Attention: V-8 Engines, it is time to change your eating habits. You are going to have your gut detoured to scavenge some of your waste heat. You are not going to have to use four of your gas cylinders on your eight cylinders engines to run any more. You can have four cylinders with gas; but the other four cylinders will provide power without you expelling hot air. The four converted cylinders will not be letting out your energy just to raise the air temperature around you. Attention: Drivers of V-8 Engines, do your part to encourage the development of a more efficient internal combustion engine. Be at least interested in ideas to ultimately save your cash and our energy supplies. Enthusiasm is the spice of life; and it will provide rewards. That is better than complaining over a cup of coffee. Positive feedback with constructive criticism is what we inventors need to put our ideas into a working prototype. At least, you can see from my contributions that I am attempting to help our energy situation with positive suggestions. Attention: Inventors, car buffs, steam engine masters, and others with positive feedback, make your contribution to an energy efficient internal combustion engine. Remember, it doesn’t have to be something that needs new castings. Electronic control is common place now. Rust resistant injectors are available. Bring up your problems with the idea in a positive way with alternative approaches. Let us all work toward a common goal which is to finally keep more of our hard earned cash in our pocket instead of paying through to nose for our fuel to propel our vehicles. Attention: Big SUV and pickup drivers, wouldn’t it be wonderful to take your gas guzzler vehicles into a modification shop to have it converted to a hybrid steam engine. There is enough carrying capacity for this energy modification of your gas guzzler vehicle which is upside down in value of typically $10,000 because no dealer will give you jack poo for it toward a new small energy efficient vehicle. Talk about this hybrid steam engine idea that I have proposed. There must be engine builders to help make a prototype. Attention: As the writer of this hybrid steam engine, I will continue to make a prototype. In my following contribution letters, I will be more specific on the necessary modifications and my progress in making a prototype. I even am thinking about making my own camshaft by wilding and regrinding four of the lobes by following the contour of other lobes which will give me necessary lobe with two high sections. I am not worrying about things like angles just as long as the valve opens at bottom dead center and closes at top dead center. The four remaining gas cylinders are 4 cycle gas engine design. The four steam cylinders are now 2 cycles with a power stroke on every downward movement of the piston. No gas is mixed with water. No worry about heat losses because that is exactly what the hybrid steam engine does to the block heat as well as the exhaust heat. As far as heat rejection, and condensers in steam engines, that will be something to consider for better efficiency and water consumption. But if all I need to do is to add distilled water to my tank and drive the hybrid steam engine to work with its normal fuel supply, I can do that. I can even collect rain water to use a water supply. As far as freezing in cold climates, that will have to be addressed in a positive way. Water getting into the crankcase from the steam cylinders must be addressed; but has anybody tried water soluble oil in their crankcase? The automatic machining industry use soluble oil in all of their high speed cutting machines to cool and lubricate their cutters. My contribution to this forum will be positive with as much help to others to keep their enthusiasm. As I mentioned in the beginning of this letter, my thoughts of inventions has be on going for years. I do have other ideas which I would be glad to share with you. I am 71 in fair health with a strong background in electronics and CAD drawing education. My best aptitude was measured in beginning college to be mechanics and science. There is a “Six Stroke” engine designed by Bruce Crower that has unique principles. The main important principle is providing a fifth and sixth stroke in each cylinder. I am unsure of the need of a second exhaust valve in each cylinder. The sequence of operation as I understand is to have a (1) intake gas stroke, (2) compression gas stroke, (3) power gas stroke, (4) exhaust gas stroke, (5) power steam stroke, and (6) exhaust steam stroke. Would it be possible to make the exhaust gas valve to double for the exhaust steam valve? They are both in the same cylinder positioned probably side by side. With that design, the old gas guzzler V-8 could be easier modified. The cam shaft would have to be modified in your design to make it turn at 1/3 of the crank shaft and make the lob positioned in a 1/3 portion of the cam shaft. The gas exhaust lobe would have high spots that would open the valve on stroke (4) and stroke (6) if the same valve were used for the gas exhaust stroke and steam exhaust stroke; otherwise each cylinder must be provided with a third valve system. If you used the common exhaust valve idea on the six stroke hybrid steam engine but add the idea of using alternative cylinders for only steam power, can the result be a big winner? The cam shaft would need proper lobes for each cylinder based on the 1/3 cam speed. I think the cam should provide six strokes as follows: (A) An intake gas stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke. (B) A gas compression stroke, a steam power stroke and a steam exhaust stroke. (C) Gas power stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke. (D) Gas exhaust stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke. (E) Gas (steam) power stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke. (F) Gas (steam) exhaust stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke. Does the combination of the “Six Cycle Hybrid Steam Engine” and my hybrid steam engine have merit? Bear in mind that this engine should be able to be made from a modified standard V-8 engine. Only the cam shaft needs to be made. The heads could be just modified heads. The exhaust manifold as well as the intake manifold is also special welded pipes. Fuel injection is standard for the gas cylinders. Water injection must be provided out of rust free material for the steam application. Gears and chains must be provided for the 1/3 ratio of cam to crank. Don’t worry about water recovery; and don’t worry about distilled water because the use of rain water or snow-melt is good enough. The emergency use of distilled water is always the possibility. I hope my suggestions are more than hot steam. I need to put my retirement to good use to possibly help the bad economy and energy problems of our Country and World. Keep in touch because I have some other good ideas such as fine gold recovery and owner builder home construction. Sincerely, George J. Birds Jr. 601 Canyon Dr. Lebec, CA 93243 Phone: (661) 248-5152 E-mail: birdsgyjk@wmconnect.com Dear Steam power inventors;
06-02-2010
I found an idea about a “Hybrid Steam Six Cycle Engine” by Bruce Crower in “The Best Inventions Of 2007” on the Internet. The present “Gulf Oil Spill” has set me off again to try to get a proto-type engine built of a hybrid steam engine.
I have been writing in my journals for 30 years about a conversion I wanted to make to the gas guzzling V-8 engines. My idea has been to use two outside cylinders on one side as gas cylinders without modification. The other side inside cylinders would also be used as gas cylinders without modification. These four cylinders would be modern fuel injected with all normal computer controls. The engine must be run on these four cylinders until proper block and head temperatures are achieved. Then the four remaining cylinders would be run as two stroke units being powered by “flashsteam” injection at top dead center of the steam cylinders. The exhaust from each gas cylinder would go out of its normal exhaust port and loop around to its adjacent steam cylinder old exhaust port. The old exhaust valve and seat in the steam cylinder will be replaced with a “heat sink” which extends into the old combustion chamber and thereby replacing it. The other side of the “heat sink” will have fins on it extending up through a hole milled in the head which replaced the old exhaust valve. A stainless steel tube will be press fitted in that hole which holds that “heat sink” essentially blocking any flow into the steam cylinder. But the exhaust gas from the adjacent gas cylinder will flow through a side hole in that SS tube with the fins of the “heat sink” protruding upward. This new exhaust tube will have to come out of a hole cut in the old valve cover. There will be two such holes in the old valve covers directly in line with the replaced old exhaust valves. The original intake valves of the converted cylinders will become the new exhaust valves for the new steam cylinders. They must be controlled by a special cam shaft which has a double lobe for each of the new steam exhaust valves. This control will be to open the steam exhaust valve at bottom dead center and close it on top dead center using two new lobes on that cam position. There will be four such new double lobe cam positions. The original exhaust lobes for those cylinders will not be used. A new simplified intake manifold must be fabricated to provide normal injector placement and connection to the throttle body for the gas cylinders. A new manifold from the original intake holes on the steam cylinders which are now steam exhaust holes will be joined to the new SS gas exhaust tubes coming out of the valve covers which will mix the spent steam with the gas exhaust to be outputted to the atmosphere through normal modern exhaust systems. A computer control of the “flashsteam” injectors must be provided. The idea of using a “Corn Burner” as a heat source has been modified by using the waste heat from the standard internal combustion engine. I am not mixing water or steam into the gas cylinders. The gas cylinders will be unchanged physically or in their normal operation; just their exhaust will be diverted a bit. Limiting some of the water cooling around the new steam cylinder and head should be done to retain their heat. The “flashsteam” injector may be the proper way to run the steam cylinder. I have wanted to make what I call my “Hybrid Steam Engine” for years. Every time the price of fuel goes up, I get more interested in its development. Now the fuel price has pushed me to accomplish my goal. But I do not feel the idea or which could be an invention needs to be held in private for financial gain. I have told many people about the idea without any action. Now with the Internet, maybe this idea will catch the eye of people of the World and not be squashed by the oil companies.
Attention: V-8 Engines, it is time to change your eating habits. You are going to have your gut detoured to scavenge some of your waste heat. You are not going to have to use four of your gas cylinders on your eight cylinders engines to run any more. You can have four cylinders with gas; but the other four cylinders will provide power without you expelling hot air. The four converted cylinders will not be letting out your energy just to raise the air temperature around you.
Attention: Drivers of V-8 Engines, do your part to encourage the development of a more efficient internal combustion engine. Be at least interested in ideas to ultimately save your cash and our energy supplies. Enthusiasm is the spice of life; and it will provide rewards. That is better than complaining over a cup of coffee. Positive feedback with constructive criticism is what we inventors need to put our ideas into a working prototype. At least, you can see from my contributions that I am attempting to help our energy situation with positive suggestions.
Attention: Inventors, car buffs, steam engine masters, and others with positive feedback, make your contribution to an energy efficient internal combustion engine. Remember, it doesn’t have to be something that needs new castings. Electronic control is common place now. Rust resistant injectors are available. Bring up your problems with the idea in a positive way with alternative approaches. Let us all work toward a common goal which is to finally keep more of our hard earned cash in our pocket instead of paying through to nose for our fuel to propel our vehicles.
Attention: Big SUV and pickup drivers, wouldn’t it be wonderful to take your gas guzzler vehicles into a modification shop to have it converted to a hybrid steam engine. There is enough carrying capacity for this energy modification of your gas guzzler vehicle which is upside down in value of typically $10,000 because no dealer will give you jack poo for it toward a new small energy efficient vehicle. Talk about this hybrid steam engine idea that I have proposed. There must be engine builders to help make a prototype.
Attention: As the writer of this hybrid steam engine, I will continue to make a prototype. In my following contribution letters, I will be more specific on the necessary modifications and my progress in making a prototype. I even am thinking about making my own camshaft by wilding and regrinding four of the lobes by following the contour of other lobes which will give me necessary lobe with two high sections. I am not worrying about things like angles just as long as the valve opens at bottom dead center and closes at top dead center. The four remaining gas cylinders are 4 cycle gas engine design. The four steam cylinders are now 2 cycles with a power stroke on every downward movement of the piston. No gas is mixed with water. No worry about heat losses because that is exactly what the hybrid steam engine does to the block heat as well as the exhaust heat. As far as heat rejection, and condensers in steam engines, that will be something to consider for better efficiency and water consumption. But if all I need to do is to add distilled water to my tank and drive the hybrid steam engine to work with its normal fuel supply, I can do that. I can even collect rain water to use a water supply. As far as freezing in cold climates, that will have to be addressed in a positive way. Water getting into the crankcase from the steam cylinders must be addressed; but has anybody tried water soluble oil in their crankcase? The automatic machining industry use soluble oil in all of their high speed cutting machines to cool and lubricate their cutters. My contribution to this forum will be positive with as much help to others to keep their enthusiasm.
As I mentioned in the beginning of this letter, my thoughts of inventions has be on going for years. I do have other ideas which I would be glad to share with you. I am 71 in fair health with a strong background in electronics and CAD drawing education. My best aptitude was measured in beginning college to be mechanics and science.
There is a “Six Stroke” engine designed by Bruce Crower that has unique principles. The main important principle is providing a fifth and sixth stroke in each cylinder. I am unsure of the need of a second exhaust valve in each cylinder. The sequence of operation as I understand is to have a (1) intake gas stroke, (2) compression gas stroke, (3) power gas stroke, (4) exhaust gas stroke, (5) power steam stroke, and (6) exhaust steam stroke.
Would it be possible to make the exhaust gas valve to double for the exhaust steam valve? They are both in the same cylinder positioned probably side by side. With that design, the old gas guzzler V-8 could be easier modified. The cam shaft would have to be modified in your design to make it turn at 1/3 of the crank shaft and make the lob positioned in a 1/3 portion of the cam shaft. The gas exhaust lobe would have high spots that would open the valve on stroke (4) and stroke (6) if the same valve were used for the gas exhaust stroke and steam exhaust stroke; otherwise each cylinder must be provided with a third valve system.
If you used the common exhaust valve idea on the six stroke hybrid steam engine but add the idea of using alternative cylinders for only steam power, can the result be a big winner?
The cam shaft would need proper lobes for each cylinder based on the 1/3 cam speed. I think the cam should provide six strokes as follows:
(A) An intake gas stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke.
(B) A gas compression stroke, a steam power stroke and a steam exhaust stroke.
(C) Gas power stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke.
(D) Gas exhaust stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke.
(E) Gas (steam) power stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke.
(F) Gas (steam) exhaust stroke, a steam power stroke, and a steam exhaust stroke.
Does the combination of the “Six Cycle Hybrid Steam Engine” and my hybrid steam engine have merit? Bear in mind that this engine should be able to be made from a modified standard V-8 engine. Only the cam shaft needs to be made. The heads could be just modified heads. The exhaust manifold as well as the intake manifold is also special welded pipes. Fuel injection is standard for the gas cylinders. Water injection must be provided out of rust free material for the steam application. Gears and chains must be provided for the 1/3 ratio of cam to crank. Don’t worry about water recovery; and don’t worry about distilled water because the use of rain water or snow-melt is good enough. The emergency use of distilled water is always the possibility.
I hope my suggestions are more than hot steam. I need to put my retirement to good use to possibly help the bad economy and energy problems of our Country and World. Keep in touch because I have some other good ideas such as fine gold recovery and owner builder home construction.
Sincerely,
George J. Birds Jr.
601 Canyon Dr.
Lebec, CA 93243
Phone: (661) 248-5152
E-mail: birdsgyjk@wmconnect.com

]]> By: biscuithead1224 http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-25979 biscuithead1224 Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:44:26 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-25979 [quote]Cringle84 said: "I just had a thought, how about trying it with propane gas as fuel, there is no sulphur in propane. The byproducts of combustion of propane is carbon dioxide and water and there is no soot to make sludge so therefore you can condense the exhaust vapors to water to be used again. Propane fueled cars are commonplace here in Australia, I guess it is common in other countries, there is a thought!"[/quote] excellent idea! [quote]Cringle84 said: “I just had a thought, how about trying it with propane gas as fuel, there is no sulphur in propane. The byproducts of combustion of propane is carbon dioxide and water and there is no soot to make sludge so therefore you can condense the exhaust vapors to water to be used again. Propane fueled cars are commonplace here in Australia, I guess it is common in other countries, there is a thought!”[/quote]

excellent idea!

]]> By: biscuithead1224 http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-25978 biscuithead1224 Thu, 15 Apr 2010 00:42:00 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-25978 Now the big problem i see is that sometimes the car doesn't start on the first cycle and if the gas doesn't burn then the water gets injected then you have a big mess inside the cylinder Now the big problem i see is that sometimes the car doesn’t start on the first cycle and if the gas doesn’t burn then the water gets injected then you have a big mess inside the cylinder

]]> By: iliyas inamdar http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-25782 iliyas inamdar Sat, 13 Feb 2010 06:01:30 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-25782 your idea is great. but is it possible to build such an engine....? but wont there be any corrosion of engine due to water particles........? when water will enter d cylinder there will temprature drop so wont the calorific value of the fuel b affected....? please reply my queries... yours iliyas +919881056925 your idea is great. but is it possible to build such an engine….? but wont there be any corrosion of engine due to water particles……..? when water will enter d cylinder there will temprature drop so wont the calorific value of the fuel b affected….?
please reply my queries…
yours iliyas
+919881056925

]]> By: paresh bhangale http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-25781 paresh bhangale Sat, 13 Feb 2010 05:38:47 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-25781 this is excellent idea ....... this is excellent idea …….

]]> By: ravi.kr http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-23886 ravi.kr Fri, 30 Jan 2009 07:05:29 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-23886 [quote]ravi.kr said: "RAVIKUMAR K hello sir really you done a good job.. really it is envirnamental frendly engine, it is most usefull for the future era. i have done diploma in automobile with BE in mechanical graduation. one thing i have to share with you, i have done my accademic project as SIX STROKE I C ENGINE in my BE as same as your concept. i got sucess, i would like to share the details with you regarding what i have done, and i would like to improve the engine design and other performance criteria, can you revert back me sir….. your's ravikumar k 09886288318"[/quote] [quote]ravi.kr said: “RAVIKUMAR K

hello sir really you done a good job..
really it is envirnamental frendly engine, it is most usefull for the future era.
i have done diploma in automobile with BE in mechanical graduation.
one thing i have to share with you, i have done my accademic project as SIX STROKE I C ENGINE in my BE as same as your concept. i got sucess, i would like to share the details with you regarding what i have done, and i would like to improve the engine design and other performance criteria, can you revert back me sir…..
your’s

ravikumar k
09886288318″[/quote]

]]> By: ravi.kr http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-23875 ravi.kr Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:19:56 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-23875 RAVIKUMAR K hello sir really you done a good job.. really it is envirnamental frendly engine, it is most usefull for the future era. i have done diploma in automobile with BE in mechanical graduation. one thing i have to share with you, i have done my accademic project as SIX STROKE I C ENGINE in my BE as same as your concept. i got sucess, i would like to share the details with you regarding what i have done, and i would like to improve the engine design and other performance criteria, can you revert back me sir..... your's ravikumar k 09886288318 RAVIKUMAR K

hello sir really you done a good job..
really it is envirnamental frendly engine, it is most usefull for the future era.
i have done diploma in automobile with BE in mechanical graduation.
one thing i have to share with you, i have done my accademic project as SIX STROKE I C ENGINE in my BE as same as your concept. i got sucess, i would like to share the details with you regarding what i have done, and i would like to improve the engine design and other performance criteria, can you revert back me sir…..
your’s

ravikumar k
09886288318

]]> By: Two Cents from Girth http://www.damninteresting.com/the-six-stroke-engine/#comment-23637 Two Cents from Girth Fri, 02 Jan 2009 16:37:06 +0000 http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467#comment-23637 Another great change in the American Aumotive industry would be to dispence with the United Autoworkers Union... If an industry is performing well and generating a profit, they should be allowed to regulate labor as they please, within the letters of the law. Inn this case, they have gone to Congress and aquired 17+- billion of my/our money to fund a labor system that is overpriced and antiquaited in todays "global market". The Japanese are here in the U.S. opening factories and hiring non union labor and expanding. A plant opened in San Antonio making Toyotas while Michigan rusts away, how is that possible? I'll tell you. These workers have been convinced it takes $20 plus an hour to assemble a car and wont budge because of the UAU and their own greed. By all rights, the foreign auto manufacturers should be in Michigan, all the trained workers are there, the infrastructure is there and the factories are already there. Did Michigan make it easy for them ? Heck no! They had protests, caused trouble and dug their heels in, for what? So the union dues could keep rolling in. The US Gov. didnt do this, the workers didnt, nor the consumers, it was the Union itself, because of its inflexibility. Look at the wage scale for automotive assembly around the world... enough said. I am sorry, automotive assembly is no longer (and probally never was) a $28 per hour w/ benifits and a pention kind of a career field. I am not knocking the work and the hours, I am knocking the inflexibility of the Union in what many of us would agree is an ever changing market. The Japanese, Europeans and now some Americans have proven you dont need a union to build a car or protect a competative wage... So we really need to get real about our Autoworkers Union especially when it is they who are taking directly from us now. What has the UAU done for us or the worker in the last 20 years? News flash, we lost cars wars but did not adapt our labor to stay competative, now we make Japanese cars in our country while American car factories close, boo hoo. We know the how and we know the why, what has been done? Zilch, nada, nicht, nothing. Want a healthy industry, build a better car and reduce labor costs, just about every industry seeks those results, what makes car production so special? Now they are getting bailouts?? What about a for sale sign or limited bankruptcy, skipping at least two steps as far as I can tell. Another great change in the American Aumotive industry would be to dispence with the United Autoworkers Union… If an industry is performing well and generating a profit, they should be allowed to regulate labor as they please, within the letters of the law. Inn this case, they have gone to Congress and aquired 17+- billion of my/our money to fund a labor system that is overpriced and antiquaited in todays “global market”. The Japanese are here in the U.S. opening factories and hiring non union labor and expanding. A plant opened in San Antonio making Toyotas while Michigan rusts away, how is that possible? I’ll tell you. These workers have been convinced it takes $20 plus an hour to assemble a car and wont budge because of the UAU and their own greed. By all rights, the foreign auto manufacturers should be in Michigan, all the trained workers are there, the infrastructure is there and the factories are already there. Did Michigan make it easy for them ? Heck no! They had protests, caused trouble and dug their heels in, for what? So the union dues could keep rolling in. The US Gov. didnt do this, the workers didnt, nor the consumers, it was the Union itself, because of its inflexibility. Look at the wage scale for automotive assembly around the world… enough said. I am sorry, automotive assembly is no longer (and probally never was) a $28 per hour w/ benifits and a pention kind of a career field. I am not knocking the work and the hours, I am knocking the inflexibility of the Union in what many of us would agree is an ever changing market. The Japanese, Europeans and now some Americans have proven you dont need a union to build a car or protect a competative wage… So we really need to get real about our Autoworkers Union especially when it is they who are taking directly from us now. What has the UAU done for us or the worker in the last 20 years? News flash, we lost cars wars but did not adapt our labor to stay competative, now we make Japanese cars in our country while American car factories close, boo hoo. We know the how and we know the why, what has been done? Zilch, nada, nicht, nothing. Want a healthy industry, build a better car and reduce labor costs, just about every industry seeks those results, what makes car production so special? Now they are getting bailouts?? What about a for sale sign or limited bankruptcy, skipping at least two steps as far as I can tell.

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