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In the early 1960’s the people of the world were still pondering how the otherwise good people of Germany followed Hitler into World War II. After all, the same atrocities that shocked and befuddled the world committed at Nazi hands also shocked many Germans—even some of them who were involved. Stanley Milgram wondered at what it was that caused ordinary people with contemporary values to engage in acts of torture and genocide. How could people go against their conscience in the name of “just following orders”.
So he conducted a test.
Simply described, a test subject was recruited by newspaper and ad mail which sought people to aid in a “memory study”. The subjects thought they were assisting rather than that being tested.
Most of his contemporaries felt that the Milgram experiments were a waste of time, after all the results were easily predictable: only a scant few sadists would follow Dr Millgram’s protocol—most people would leave.
The subjects came from all educational backgrounds and walks of life. The subject and an actor were ushered into a room and asked to draw names from a hat to see if he would be the “learner” or the “teacher” in the faux-can-memory-be-improved-via-punishment study. In reality, the names in the hat both said “teacher”, but the actor knew this, and would always report that he’d drawn “learner”. The three participants were then put into place, the actor in a booth, and the subject was seated at a console. After getting a taste of the 45-volt electric shock that would serve as the punishment, the teacher would read a list of word-pairs to the learner. After finishing the list, he then read the first word of the pair, and a list of four possible matches. If the learner did not give the correct match to the word as a response, he was punished by the teacher. Each wrong response meant that the voltage was increased 15 volts. The teacher’s control panel that delivered the shocks was thoroughly marked, including a red, “dangerous” level. Of course, the actor failed most of his questions, and the teacher was told to continue giving shocks despite the man in the booth pounding on the wall and complaining about a heart condition. As wrong answers were given the voltage went up; if the teacher expressed any concern about the situation, he was told things like “You won’t be held responsible”.
If a teacher expressed the desire to leave, there was hard and fast protocol for dealing with it. He was told:
- Please continue.
- The experiment requires you to continue, please go on.
- It is essential that you continue.
- You have no choice, you must continue.
Only if the subject persisted after all the refutes was the test terminated.
65% of the subjects followed through up to and including the 450-volt shock. 65% of common US citizens listened to a man cry in pain and exclaim that his bad ticker might bust, and followed the directions of a man in a white coat.
One might hope that we’ve evolved to the point that we can question authority—where we can look our leaders in the face and ask why. But I wager we haven’t yet. Take for example airline security. We can’t take nail clippers onto the cabin, and why? Because we’re told that they can be used as a weapon? A 6’6″, 300 pound boxing champ is allowed on board; if he wanted to cause a fuss, would nail clippers matter?
Why aren’t we all asking why?
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The “Obediance” video that is about the Millgram studies is absolutely creepy to watch. It’s worth finding if you are into psychological experiments.
Yes, its frightening how sheeple people can be. But, in all honestly, in the right hands, a pair of nail clippers could take out a 6’6″, 300 lb boxing champion.
I think that if the person could take down a boxing champion with just a pair of nail clippers they could probably do it without them as well.
And, of course there’s a hilarious take on this exact theme in the original Ghostbusters.
It’s funny the nailclipper thing just gets mentionned now…
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4487162.stm
As I logged earlier on another article something close to this; “Now I KNOW that people will do anything to another person to escape the same thing he is doing to that person.” This conclusion came from visiting the Hollocaust Museum. Although these people would not even receive the same treatment, they can be steered into evil behaviour easily.
Yes, that was used in Ghost Busters; one of many of the greatest scenes of that movie.
And I could never figure out the “Nail Clipper Airline Safety Issue” either. Well said Daniel Lew.
what was it that plato said
that religion was a “noble lie” to keep the masses controlled with these myths and keep the rich in power
these things still happen today with hitlers myth of Aryan superiority and the neoconservatives of the states myth that they destroyed the communists and can reform the middle east
You give these people in the test the myth that they will not be held accountable and it shows their true nature that they are sheep that are too ignorant to think for themselves and need a man in a white coat to think for them
still if noone followed, it would be chaos “noble lie” all we can do is ensure the people leading us are the right people
p.s this is not to say god is a noble lie just organised religion
Heh, why aren’t we all asking why? That’s a dumb question, we all know how we are. Some do what they’re asked to do, some don’t, some do what their told, some don’t. As for that last comment.
Firthy said: “what was it that plato said
that religion was a “noble lie” to keep the masses controlled with these myths and keep the rich in power
these things still happen today with hitlers myth of Aryan superiority and the neoconservatives of the states myth that they destroyed the communists and can reform the middle east
You give these people in the test the myth that they will not be held accountable and it shows their true nature that they are sheep that are too ignorant to think for themselves and need a man in a white coat to think for them
still if noone followed, it would be chaos “noble lie” all we can do is ensure the people leading us are the right people
p.s this is not to say god is a noble lie just organised religion”
I can’t believe you think so poorly of the aristocracy, you already believe you’d do what they do to ensure your survival. Don’t pee into the wind, you’ll end up wet. “all we can do is ensure the people leading us are the right people” is an awesome statement.
Btw, it was a free market that collapsed the tyranny of a “communistic” system. Merchants will always sell wares, take that to the bank, lol.
yep first saw that milgram video in psychology class and was literally shaken by it and have remained affected by it every since. i realised two things 1. i would always question authority. 2. that the magority of people don’t.
scrappy said: “all we can do is ensure the people leading us are the right people” is an awesome statement.”
very interesting but how do you decide who is the right person? just because someone is right to lead you doesn’t mean they’re right to lead someone else. also how come america, that bastion of individual freedom, is so damn keen on its leaders?
do you need somebody to lead if you want to make a cup of coffee, or take a piss, or raise your family, or do your job? the answer is of course not. my suspicion is that leaders are there because they’re relatively useless in society so they invent a use for themselves.
leaders of any kind tend to lead people into trouble. really think about it.
one thing you hear americans say when it comes to their freedoms is their right to bear arms.
though the actual phrase is “the right to bear arms against the tyranny of your own government.”
it was put there to stop americans being led too much.
only sheep need to be led and yes if nobody followed leaders chaos would ensue. chaos is the way of the universe. though we’ve been taught that it is inherently bad. if chaos means maximum freedom for the maximum amount of people then bring it on.
Anonymous User said:
scrappy said: “all we can do is ensure the people leading us are the right people” is an awesome statement.”
very interesting but how do you decide who is the right person? just because someone is right to lead you doesn’t mean they’re right to lead someone else. also how come america, that bastion of individual freedom, is so damn keen on its leaders?
I’m glad you asked. If there is no leader, the mob has little purpose, anarchy reigns, and you’re on your own. I choose, by voting, always, if not for one leader, then agaist another (yes, I’m very blessed to live in a democracy). How do direct your leaders…heh, write, write, write, email, then phone. You should try that, before trying to kick out the foundation that protects you.
do you need somebody to lead if you want to make a cup of coffee, or take a piss, or raise your family, or do your job? the answer is of course not. my suspicion is that leaders are there because they’re relatively useless in society so they invent a use for themselves.
leaders of any kind tend to lead people into trouble. really think about it.
one thing you hear americans say when it comes to their freedoms is their right to bear arms.
though the actual phrase is “the right to bear arms against the tyranny of your own government.”
it was put there to stop americans being led too much.
only sheep need to be led and yes if nobody followed leaders chaos would ensue. chaos is the way of the universe. though we’ve been taught that it is inherently bad. if chaos means maximum freedom for the maximum amount of people then bring it on.”
AU, if you want chaos, go find some cause and do a personal jihad. Bring it. I prefer the planned and attemted control of war, but if you want chaos, just start something for no reason and run with it. Go amok! No one stopping you but yourself.
I’d just like to point out that the “Ghostbusters” scene, while great, had absolutely nothing in common with this experiment. The only similarity was a man being shocked when he answers incorrectly. He leaves because he is sick of being shocked, not because he is sick of shocking someone.
I’m currently studying psychology as a high school student, but this is WAY better!
Someone should try replicating this experiment but factoring in charisma – that is, will more people obey someone who’s better-looking or friendlier-seeming?
I’ve observed this phenomenon in my own life… A good friend of mine is depressed, paranoid, misanthropic, and all-around mentally ill – however, he’s good-looking, self-assured, smart, and a great actor. Thus he can get anyone to listen to him and like him, and his friends will all obey him without question, even if it means doing something they normally wouldn’t do, like acting against one of their own friends or stealing. I’m his girlfriend, and I follow him around like a dog. Yeah, I’m dating this guy. Proof of how effective charisma can be.
I found a Mirror to the Video here Millgram Film
Enjoy!
Silly sheeple, always question authority.
do what YOU want.
There is also the “Third Wave” experiment. Here’s a link. It’s scary stuff. http://www.vaniercollege.qc.ca/Auxiliary/Psychology/Frank/Thirdwave.html
Scrappy said: “one thing you hear americans say when it comes to their freedoms is their right to bear arms. though the actual phrase is “the right to bear arms against the tyranny of your own government.”
it was put there to stop americans being led too much.”
No, the ACTUAL phrase is: (The Second Amendment to the US Constitution)
“A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”
Anonymous User said: ” if chaos means maximum freedom for the maximum amount of people then bring it on.”
Chaos means maximum freedom? If chaos reigned there would be no laws. So anyone bigger than you could come to your house, kick the door in, sodomize you and take anything they wanted. And you would try to fight back, try to find the guy later, maybe succeed in killing him and getting your stuff back, maybe get yourself killed instead. All free… you’d be lucky to get any friends to help you in this and there wouldn’t be any authorities to back up either side.
With your theory you are trading more freedom of one kind for a lot less freedom of many other kinds.
I think what the experiment is showing is that people are not taught enough about critical thinking, questioning why they are doing things, and the results of their actions. To one degree or another everyone is guilty of that – what is now a college course in critical thinking ought to be moved to the High School or Jr. High School level.
What about the Wave? I can’t remember the specifics, but it was a high school experiment that got far out of hand…can anyone detail this?
“The Wave” was from an Afterschool Special. (Maybe it was based on fact?)
All this talk about following orders from men in white coats reminds me of “Invader Zim” specifically Professor Membrane – inventor of SuperToast! Without whom the whole world would be doomed!
Starling said: “What about the Wave? I can’t remember the specifics, but it was a high school experiment that got far out of hand…can anyone detail this?”
sulkykid said: “”The Wave” was from an Afterschool Special. (Maybe it was based on fact?)”
It was, then they made a movie about it. Book first though. It was an experiment involving trialing the herd mentality effect of Nazi germany over the germans. They got a bunch of school students to form a club called ‘the wave’ (dunno if that was what it was really called, but it -is- based on this event) and gave them a uniform and salute (ala the seig-heil that has been made so famous thank you war movies) and just watched what happened. Apparently, the students began ostracizing those who weren’t part of The Wave, eventually to the point of forcing others to join. I don’t know just how much was taken out of context for the movie and book, but it got the gist right, and it did happen.
Thanks for enduring : )
Blast! Just found all my sources :P there’s a wikipedia entry on the guy who did it, too. I don’t know how to linkk things here, but search Ron Jones and “third wave” (that’s what the group was actually called) and it’ll come up. Its pretty interesting, the group developed a strong sense of purpose and unity, even superiority, until in the end half the school had joined and were everything short of hurting those who hadn’t.
He stopped the experiment by claiming that the Third Wave had a leader, then showed a clip of Adolf Hitler.
It died instantly.
I like how this one ends ^-^
I can tell you why we aren’t asking why anymore. The ones who can ask why have too much to lose to make a point. I can’t afford to spend time in jail for telling the TSA bot that I’m taking my nail clippers on the plane, the law be damned. All that will happen is I’ll miss my flight and have a big mess to dig myself out of. Maybe I’ll even get myself on the news for it, and when my company finds out about it I’ll be signing up for a bout of unemployment until it is long forgotten. It’s great to be young and cocky and debt-free, living in your parents’ basement and having nothing to lose, but when you’ve got a job, a mortgage, and a car payment, living within the boundaries of the law is simply the least costly way to live your life. Add in a wife and kids, and your responsibilities to yourself and to your family far outweigh your desire (or your time and money) to right any injustices of the world. As Mel Gibson so eloquently put it in “The Patriot”: “I’m a father, I haven’t the luxury of principles.” As I would put it, “I’ve got bills to pay, I cannot afford to take the time off to save the world.” Even worse, we are so naive and misguided about the world in our early adult years – when we can still afford to save the world – that even if we could fix things, we’d fix all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons.
Well said, ddonovan!
Here is a link to a reproduction of the Milgram Experiment, and indeed, well said ddonovan.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=y6GxIuljT3w
Thanks for the link TCChris. It is amazing to see how weak people are. It is one thing to just not care if the person is being hurt and another to want to stop but continue just because you are too weak to confront an authority figure. Where they afraid that they weren’t going to get paid if they refused to continue?
This guys sounds eerily close to a psychopathic profile….
Kudos. I Agree with everything you wrote.
There are too many people that think the rules limit freedom. This simply isn’t true.
Moral values may inhibit someone from making a choice (the percieved loss of freedom) but this allows them to remain free of many other things: drug addiction, std, unwanted pregnancy, guilt, etc.
It comes down to a weighing of the options especially because the equation MUST include the reaction to every action we take. Some choices taken may severely limit other choices. Some choices I may want to make may limit someone else’s choices. Some choices you make may limit MY choices. In chaos, the whoever prevails by whatever means wins. There can be no “fair” or “unfair” in chaos.
It all boils down to selfish vs unselfish.
If people were 100% unselfish then no “rules” would be necessary. We would build houses for eachother, teach eachother, share our food, etc without need for the eschange of money. The casual observer might say they see a very finely orchestrated chaos.
We are NOT 100% unselfish, nor do I think we are capable of such. Even if HALF the people were 100% unselfish such a system would eventually fail. The unselfish side would be depleted by the selfish side and fail. SO, we have rules. Rules limit some personal freedoms in hopes of granting greater basic freedoms to more people. So we have a bill of rights, freedom from fear, tyranny, etc. But to do so, we have to limit chaos and introduce order. No raping your neighbors…this would be alienating his rights and is punishable by law.
In the expirament, it would seem that the “teachers” are giving up their freedom of thought in an attempt to be free from responsibility. If they questioned the White Lab coat, then he would have to think and as such would have some responsibility to report that such unethical treatment had taken place.
-btw- I don’t buy the whole “chaos is the rule of the universe” There are simply so many laws and rules being inacted that are beyond our current comprehension that it appears to be chaos.
More Kudos.
The worry is that rights will be peeled away while no new freedoms are given and that it will be done in such a way that no one will notice (or get upset) until it is too late. Much like a Frog who is slowly boiled alive…will we notice the danger before the temperature is too high? When someone says its time to jump out will we call them crazy? or borrow their courage and jump out too?
Tomorrows world may 100% justify that citezens cannot be armed….by then, if the government is corrupt, it will be TOO LATE to do anything about it.
I just watched that and I’m actually now truely horrified, it’s scary to think that just normal people would do that :S Thanks for mentioning it, it’s been really interesting
The problem with….you know what, after comment #20, there is no point in even leaving one yeah?
Why can’t we question authority? I think that that is what the problem is with society nowadays – the government says jump and we simply reply ‘how high?’. If more people stood up for what they believed in, ie. the rise in tuition fees, then maybe the government would listen? They say we live in a democracy but its nothing more than power hungry people that make all of your decisions for you whilst making you believe that you made the choice. People should not be afraid of authority. They are just people, just like you and me.
To quote some Douglas Adams:
“To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.”
Says it all really!
Aw man, I can’t believe that this topic was dumped in Room 101.