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Sympathy for the Devil

Article #267 • Written by Marisa Brook

1973 police photo of the hostages at the Kreditbanken, Stockholm, Sweden. The captor appears at right.
1973 police photo of the hostages at the Kreditbanken, Stockholm, Sweden. The captor appears at right.

There are few things as thrilling as the story of a dramatic escape, especially one with a happy ending. It is understandable, therefore, that the public is often disappointed and critical when a kidnapping victim found alive is revealed to have had seemingly enough contact with the outside world to make such an escape. Stories of survival can feel ruined when there turns out to have been what looks like an 'easy way out'.

One well-publicized example was that of Elizabeth Smart, the Utah teenager who was abducted at knifepoint from her bedroom in 2002. Nine months later she and her captors were stopped by police not far from her home. Elizabeth was in disguise, and lied about her identity. It was not until some time after being handcuffed and separated from the abductors that she began to cooperate. More recently, Missouri teenager Shawn Hornbeck was found in early 2007 after having been kidnapped and held for more than four years outside St. Louis, only 50 miles from home. Unlike Smart, Hornbeck was able to tell police officers who he was; it was revealed, though, that Hornbeck had been allowed Internet access and a fair degree of autonomy.

In such cases, it is extremely easy to blame the victims; it seems very plausible that the kidnapped individuals were simply not clever, resourceful, or courageous enough to flee their respective abductors. However, this disturbing tendency has little to do with any supposed weakness on the part of the victim. Given the right conditions, abductors are able to exert an astonishing amount of influence over their victims - to the point at which the captive has full loyalty to his or her captor while believing that this was his or her own choice. It is a cognitive phenomenon related to brainwashing and known as Stockholm syndrome.

The condition was named for a 1973 kidnapping case in Stockholm, Sweden, in which four bank employees held hostage for six days ended up siding with their abductors and even trying to fight being rescued. It was only a year later that a much longer, more extreme, and more well-documented case occurred. The kidnappers were part of an extremist left-wing group calling itself the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA), a small but radical leftist revolutionary group formed in the San Francisco, California area. Loosely based on urban guerilla groups in South America, the SLA quickly made itself known by shooting and killing a school superintendent whose ideas they had opposed. "To those who would bear the hopes and future of our people," said the group's constitution, "let the voice of their guns express the words of freedom."

Patricia Hearst posing as 'Tania' the urban guerrilla.
Patricia Hearst posing as 'Tania' the urban guerrilla.

Two of the SLA's members were arrested and imprisoned for the murder. To negotiate for their release, the SLA planned an abduction. Hating well-off capitalists above all others, the group decided to target the prominent and wealthy Hearst family. On 4 February 1974 three members of the SLA broke into the Berkeley apartment of 19-year-old millionaire heiress Patricia Hearst and kidnapped her. As anticipated, the event was widely-reported; however, SLA leader Donald "Cinque" DeFreeze realized that the general public was going to side with the Hearst family. DeFreeze thus decided to manipulate Hearst into working for his group.

According to later testimony, for the next two months Hearst was put into a closet and repeatedly starved, raped, and otherwise abused. The group constantly bombarded her with pro-SLA propaganda and forced her to denounce her family and friends in recorded messages. The Hearst family frantically complied with the demands made by the SLA for Patricia's release, but to no avail.

Hearst's first appearance after the kidnapping was startling. A now-infamous photo was released showing her wielding a rifle alongside the cobra symbol of the SLA. A tape from the same time stated that she had renamed herself 'Tania' (after an accomplice of Che Guevara) and voluntarily joined the very group responsible for her abduction. In mid-April another tape surfaced, one on which the voice of Patty Hearst denied that the SLA had performed any psychological manipulation: "As for [my] being brainwashed, the idea is ridiculous to the point of being beyond belief." She declared that she was loyal to the SLA.

This seemed inconceivable. However, arguments that Hearst had been forced to record the message were contradicted by two events. First, at a bank robbery on 15 April 1975, Hearst was spotted on the security-camera footage - much to the surprise of the local police. More substantial was an event of 16 May: Hearst was left in a van while two other SLA members shopped for needed supplies at a sporting-goods store. One of them suddenly decided to shoplift; left completely alone in the van, Hearst noticed that he was about to be caught and starting firing on the store, nearly killing the owner. The other SLA members escaped to the van and the three of them fled.

From that point, the police vowed to crack down on the SLA. They killed six members of the small group after surrounding their hideout on 17 May; by September, the police captured and arrested several very prominent members of the SLA in quick succession. The last of these was Patty Hearst.

She was the only one really charged at the time, and her trial began on 4 February 1976 - two years to the day after her abduction. It lasted for nearly forty days, and could hardly have gone any worse for Hearst. The psychologists called in to testify that she had been brainwashed presented a poorly-organized argument, and her lawyer was uncoordinated and possibly drunk through much of it. On 20 March, Hearst was declared guilty and eventually sentenced to seven years in prison, although she was granted five years' probation by a second trial later on.

The public was deeply divided over the verdict. Many still sympathized with Hearst and considered her a victim. Others denounced the way in which she had seemed to enjoy shooting at the store owner and held that she was responsible for her own actions. Regardless, Hearst had already been found guilty. She served 21 months of her sentence before the sentence was commuted by President Jimmy Carter in 1979. From that point, she pieced together a quieter existence - acting in several films, marrying a former bodyguard, and giving birth to two daughters. The only way in which she was involved with the SLA after that was at the much later trials of several other former members. In 2001, President Bill Clinton awarded Patricia Hearst Shaw a full pardon.

Obviously not every kidnapping situation results in Stockholm syndrome. It is believed to manifest upon a confluence of four factors:

• The clear existence of a serious threat to the victim's physical or mental well-being - or to those of the victim's loved ones. The victim's initial compliance with the captor is caused by fear of harm to oneself and to friends and family.

Patty Hearst mug shot
Patty Hearst mug shot

• A perceived ability of the captor to be 'kind': in context, this could be as little as the captor granting his or her victim a brief reprieve from abuse. These 'kindnesses' look exponentially magnified compared with all else that has befallen the victim, and so they help to form the beginnings of an emotional bond. Often the captive begins to sympathize with the cause of the abductor, especially in examples of political hostage-taking such as that of Patty Hearst. Another contributing factor is cognitive dissonance, which is the tendency for the mind to rationalize excessively in order to resolve opposing simultaneous beliefs. The idea that a captor can be so cruel while also demonstrating such apparent kindnesses is certainly such a conflicting set of ideas. In order to reconcile these observations, a victim of abduction might convince him- or herself that the abuser had a difficult childhood, or had lived in desperate circumstances, an emotional context which could lead quickly to sympathy.

• A sheer immersion in the beliefs and abuse of the captor: effectively the role played by brainwashing.

• The captive's sense of being entirely unable to escape, of being dependent on the captor for survival; a state of mind which severely impairs the victim's ability to reason through escape-plans. In fact, the victim begins to fear the idea of being rescued since that would introduce instability (and possibly injury) into the situation, which despite being clearly unpleasant, seems familiar, predictable, and survivable.

Patricia Hearst Shaw reports on having felt many of these aspects during her ordeal. During a 2002 interview with CNN's Larry King, she said:

I had no free will. I had virtually no free will until I was separated from them for about two weeks. And then it suddenly, you know, slowly began to dawn that they just weren't there any more. I could actually think my own thoughts. It [had been] considered wrong for me to think about my family. And when [SLA leader DeFreeze] was around, he didn't want me thinking about rescue because he thought that brain waves could be read or that, you know, they'd get a psychic in to find me. And I was even afraid of that.

These effects are not limited to kidnapping situations, either. Stockholm syndrome likely has links to other situations in which oppression leads to loyalty: abusive relationships (including those between adults and children), prisoners of war, and cult members. It is also important to note that such reactions to abuse under extreme conditions are a natural reflex. Modern police officers have become so familiar with Stockholm syndrome that it is often expected when dealing with a long-term hostage case.

During the bank robbert of 15 April 1975.
During the bank robbert of 15 April 1975.

Elizabeth Smart and Shawn Hornbeck - among many others - were fortunately never inducted into guerilla organizations. The reasons behind their inexorable loyalty to their respective captors, however, are likely the same as those behind why Patty Hearst became a criminal. Like Hearst, Smart was held in isolation (at Emigration Canyon near Salt Lake City) and abused until her abductor decided that he was in control. Hornbeck is thought to have been sexually abused, and some sources report that his captor threatened to kill him and his family if he tried to escape; he thus may have been controlled by just the same process. It is also worth noting that both were younger than Hearst when they were kidnapped: Smart was 14 and Hornbeck only 11. Both were thus more easily intimidated and manipulated.

In her interview with King, Patricia Hearst Shaw later described how strongly she felt "haunted by what happened...a lot of it stemmed from feeling so horrible that my mind could be controlled by anybody." The counterintuitive aspect of Stockholm syndrome is that there was absolutely nothing about her mind that was unusually susceptible. In fact, rather than being an indication of any weakness whatsoever on the part of the victim, Stockholm syndrome turns out to be an instinctive and often effective strategy for survival.

Article written by Marisa Brook, published on 26 April 2007. Marisa lives in Toronto, Canada. She collects postcards, fridge magnets, lapel pins, interesting rocks, and linguistics degrees.

Article design by Alan Bellows. Edited by Alan Bellows.
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93 Comments
anazgnos
Posted 26 April 2007 at 04:52 pm

You know, I've been reading all these giddy "first" posts for months and thinking, you know "whatever'. But now that that thrill is finally mine, the feeling is just indescribable.


misanthrope7
Posted 26 April 2007 at 04:55 pm

Di Marisa!


Kiwi
Posted 26 April 2007 at 05:06 pm

Very damn interesting! I can't believe she would join a group of people that abused and raped her!

Man this is the first article posted in a while.....


Chris
Posted 26 April 2007 at 05:16 pm

I noticed "held in isolation" seems to have a profound impact upon those who were captured. As for Hearst, her situation certainly caused quite a stir, back then. Everyone found it difficult to believe.


ti83
Posted 26 April 2007 at 05:20 pm

What is it about evil that attracts people? It seems like it just rubs off on people and makes them unable to move.


buttered_toast
Posted 26 April 2007 at 06:10 pm

Damn, thats good to know if I ever need to kidnap somebody...


Floj
Posted 26 April 2007 at 06:28 pm

Wow that's Damn Interesting! It's amazing how people will chnge in extreme environments like being held prisoner by a captor. I like how you propose that taking such action could be a survival instinct. As for Shaw, it kind of reminds me of Frankenstein by Mary Shelly. Good book. The monster only saw hate so he only knew hate. He spent all of his time in isolation cause everyone he came in contact with either ran or tried to kill him. It was interesting how the doctor created a monster not by giving it life, but by showing it pure hatred and rejection. Interesting premise. Perhaps, it was Mary Shelly's analysis on human tendencies, and not a horror story. Perhaps...

Oh! That title remindes me of Cowboy Bebop. Good show. Interesting episode. Like pie.


Tex
Posted 26 April 2007 at 06:51 pm

Being in the Marine Corps, It kinda makes me wonder if a similar say... strain of Stockholm syndrome is what unites a platoon of recruits - the stress and abuse of it all mixed with your only real tormentor/savior is your Drill Instructor - Interesting thought... Yummm pie


Zamemee
Posted 26 April 2007 at 06:55 pm

While not dealing directly with Stockholm Syndrome, the book "Bravo Two Zero" by Andy McNab gives a fairly detailed look at the thought processes of the author while he was a POW during the Gulf War. While his captivity was relativly short, the mental preperation and planning that goes on during his experiance is amazing.


texnation
Posted 26 April 2007 at 07:18 pm

I've always wanted to influence someone with only words.


Zamemee
Posted 26 April 2007 at 07:28 pm

Become a politician.


Spike
Posted 26 April 2007 at 07:48 pm

Interesting premise. Floj, your reference to Frankenstein's Monster is thought provoking. Don't we see the same behavior young people indoctrinated in terroist camps in the Middle East? These kids are isolated and bombarded with hate and rhetoric until they don't know anything else. Also, that was part of the plot in the Cowboy Bebop episode Sympathy for the Devil. A kid who couldn't die would cripple and control a grown person to be his "Father" so no one would question a kid traveling by himself. Interesting reference...


tednugentkicksass
Posted 26 April 2007 at 09:13 pm

This just shows how strong, and strange, peoples ability to cope with events "beyond their control" is. They take comfort in whatever they learn to anticipate.

To a lesser degree, it's like that person at work or school who annoys the hell out of you. Eventually you come to expect what they do. Then one day they aren't there, you start to miss them. After a couple of weeks, you remember how annoying they were, but for that brief amount of time you feel a loss.

ti83 said: "What is it about evil that attracts people? It seems like it just rubs off on people and makes them unable to move."

It's not that simple. Good and evil are just words that different groups of people use to describe different things. The people of SLA didn't think they were evil (quite the opposite), and their way of thinking "rubbed off", not their evil. Misguided beliefs can be transferred, but not any sort underlying "rightness" or "wrongness".

I know this might change this discussion to one of theism vs atheism, but there IS NO GOOD and there IS NO EVIL; there is simply that which is good for a certain group of people, that which is good for another, and that which may be good (in differing amounts) for both. Of course the opposite is true; there is bad, too, and for the most part that which is good for one groupp is bad for another. (and just to be clear here, I'm not an atheist, I just choose to believe in a God of shades of greys.)

Or maybe I'm just an idiot.


Catkilller7
Posted 26 April 2007 at 09:51 pm

Floj said: "Perhaps, it was Mary Shelly's analysis on human tendencies, and not a horror story."

Funny thing is, she actually wrote it because a of party game. She was with a bunch of friends and they decided to split up and write the premise for a good horror story, because they were all bored. Mary Shelly simply took the idea she had written for the game and then wrote her novel.
But, as you said. Perhaps.

Damn interesting, by the way.


petepal55
Posted 26 April 2007 at 10:13 pm

hey yall, first post.

this relates to the practice of kidnapping wives in many cultures, doesnt it?
just plain ole mammalian behavior, gotta keep refreshing that gene pool!
anyone remember the movie 'a man called horse'? a sequel was made, 'return of a man called horse', maybe more. great movie.


Lisette
Posted 26 April 2007 at 10:14 pm

DI... great article... Its all about control.

Dependency-Submissiveness-Manipulation...


vnz
Posted 27 April 2007 at 01:04 am

This influence/manipulation processus is very well described in 1984. This book is just creepy, it shows what happens when humanity fails.


misanthrope
Posted 27 April 2007 at 04:08 am

Catkilller7 said: "Funny thing is, she actually wrote it because a of party game. She was with a bunch of friends and they decided to split up and write the premise for a good horror story, because they were all bored. Mary Shelly simply took the idea she had written for the game and then wrote her novel.

But, as you said. Perhaps.

Damn interesting, by the way."

If it was just a hollow list of scary things that happened (with or without an interesting plot), it wouldn't be a classic, it'd be a script for any of the tripe horror films churned out in the last 10 years. Taking the basic horror and weaving it to make that point is what makes the book great.


S0122017
Posted 27 April 2007 at 04:57 am

Tex said: "Being in the Marine Corps, It kinda makes me wonder if a similar say… strain of Stockholm syndrome is what unites a platoon of recruits - the stress and abuse of it all mixed with your only real tormentor/savior is your Drill Instructor - Interesting thought… Yummm pie"

*Drill instructor kicks soldier in crotch* "Thank you Sir! Can I have another one Sir!"


errna
Posted 27 April 2007 at 05:38 am

nice story. "startED firing on the store, nearly killing the owner." though ;)


J.K.
Posted 27 April 2007 at 06:35 am

I think in some of these cases over the years (pre and post documentation of it) are legit while others just are not. It's disturbing to think that some could effectively use this as an excuse to get away with things as well. I mean it easily could be used as a cover, seen as a way to save your ass, but also too the sign of a very weak minded peon easily open to being tooled with.


Waglok2110
Posted 27 April 2007 at 06:55 am

hmm... damn interesting indeed... but with the fifth pic down, shouldnt it say "During the bank robbery of 15 April 1975." instead of "During the bank robbert of 15 April 1975."? anyway sorry for nitpicking.


Evil Twin
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:16 am

Don't we see the same thing in the battered woman's syndrome also. Anytime an individual is broken down and stripped of their self esteem, they can be reshaped to anything the controller wishes.


Sulevis
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:25 am

Glad to see an article on this! Stockholm Syndrome is a fascinating topic.


Rinson Drei
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:44 am

I believe the symbol is a Hydra, not a cobra.


lip_ring
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:45 am

I love the trend of longer articles.

If this syndrome is a survival instinct, how did it develop? Did our ancestors make kidnapping, torture, and incorporation into the group a habit? Crazy to think about...


lip_ring
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:45 am

Rinson Drei said: "I believe the symbol is a Hydra, not a cobra."

I think you're right - I've never seen a cobra with 7 heads before... :)


Dave Group
Posted 27 April 2007 at 07:55 am

There was a case back about 20-30 years ago where a woman was kidnapped and held as a sexual slave by a man and his wife. She had numerous opportunities to escape, but didn't, and was even allowed to visit her parents on one or two occasions. I believe her name was Colleen Stan.


peznin
Posted 27 April 2007 at 08:10 am

There were a lot of damn interesting ideas thrown out in this article to explain why people who are kidnapped sometimes don't try to escape their captors, including cognitive dissonance (horray for cognitive dissonance!). However, there was one word that was thrown out a bit too carelessly for my taste: brainwashing. You can't offer a bunch of perfectly legit social cognitive reasons why this happens to people and then cop out with the comparison to brainwashing.

This is a bit of a sensitive subject to me, you see, as my dissertation advisor studies new religious movements ("cults") and actively disagrees that brainwashing exists. His domain is specifically within religion but it's safe to say he doesn't believe brainwashing exists at all...Check out this piece he wrote on the subject: http://www.cesnur.org/testi/Socpsy.htm


ironcross
Posted 27 April 2007 at 08:48 am

What? Nobody remembers:

"That would be Stockholm Denmark"
"Uhh, no, Sweden"
Oh well.

Like the recent Duke boys I was charged by an overzealous prosecutor for something I did not do. It was only after my attorney threatened the idiot that charged me did the thing get settled. I can't imagine being brian washed and am a bit skeptical with Patty, but it must suck to be controlled like that and end up having to do time. If she wasn't kidnapped, would her life have gone that way? That's what she gets for living in the land of the fruits and nuts.

Marisa: Unless Patty Hearst got a sex change in the time it took to complete your post you may want to fix this:

Hearst noticed that he was about to be caught and starting firing on the store, nearly killing the owner.


Radiatidon
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:00 am

Rinson Drei says: "I believe the symbol is a Hydra, not a cobra."

lip_ring says:”I think you're right - I've never seen a cobra with 7 heads before… :)”

Though you are correct that the hydra was a multi-headed serpent, it was DeFreeze who founded the SLA and who said “The seven-headed cobra symbol is 170,000 years old… The seven memberships of our federation are men and women who are black, brown, yellow, red, white, young and old…”

Since DeFreeze founded the movement, designed the symbol, and named it, to refer to is as anything else than a seven-headed cobra would be incorrect.


HiEv
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:12 am

ironcross said: "Marisa: Unless Patty Hearst got a sex change in the time it took to complete your post you may want to fix this:


Hearst noticed that he was about to be caught and starting firing on the store, nearly killing the owner."

Yeah, I misunderstood that sentence that way for a second myself. "He" is correct, but it's referring to the other SLA member who decided to shoplift, not Hearst. A minor rewrite there for clarity would be nice.


rev.felix
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:30 am

S0122017 said: "*Drill instructor kicks soldier in crotch* "Thank you Sir! Can I have another one Sir!""

Another pie? :)


donlaudanny
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:32 am

lip_ring said: "I love the trend of longer articles.

If this syndrome is a survival instinct, how did it develop? Did our ancestors make kidnapping, torture, and incorporation into the group a habit? Crazy to think about…"

Yes, maybe, and yes. Most of human evolution consisted of small tribes of less than 150 people. Taking account the size dimorphism between men and women (the greater the size dimorphism, the more skewed the ratio of mates, ex. male lions, gorillas, walruses, many female insects and spiders), it's safe to say that at least some of these tribes that contributed to our genepool were polygamous, with males taking multiple mates. Since males and females are born about equally, there is always an excess of mateless men, who have nothing to lose, genetically, and pretty much still act that way in society today. The solution: war with another tribe. They either die or win and take the women as mates.

If you're taken as a slave, it would be to your advantage to be in group. Everyone else in your family or tribe has already been slaughtered or driven off, so thinking of them would be counterproductive. Also, all tribes were nomadic until around 10,000 years ago, so even on the slim chance that your old tribe was still out there, you probably wouldn't be able to find them. Being a captive with a very low social status is still much better in terms of producing progeny than being alone, which means death.


Sabyrne
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:39 am

As a side note/observation... how does the title inspire two people to mention Cowboy Bebop, but no one has mentioned the Rolling Stones?


denki
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:46 am

Tex said: "Being in the Marine Corps, It kinda makes me wonder if a similar say… strain of Stockholm syndrome is what unites a platoon of recruits - the stress and abuse of it all mixed with your only real tormentor/savior is your Drill Instructor"

Read Starship Troopers by Robert A. Heinlein- and no, the movie is not an accurate representation. While it is sci-fi, it does have a pretty good part that shows how the military manipulates new recruits.


Cesium
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:48 am

Radiatidon said: "Since DeFreeze founded the movement, designed the symbol, and named it, to refer to is as anything else than a seven-headed cobra would be incorrect."

Actually you are correct/incorrect here. DeFreeze did not name it, though it is a seven headed cobra (notice that in the symbol the "heads" each sport a hood), its true name is Naga. The symbol is taken from India. There are many who make the mistake of comparing this symbol to the hydra which it is not. Good show otherwise my glowing friend. ;)


Rinson Drei
Posted 27 April 2007 at 09:55 am

Radiatidon said: "Though you are correct that the hydra was a multi-headed serpent, it was DeFreeze who founded the SLA and who said “The seven-headed cobra symbol is 170,000 years old… The seven memberships of our federation are men and women who are black, brown, yellow, red, white, young and old…”

Since DeFreeze founded the movement, designed the symbol, and named it, to refer to is as anything else than a seven-headed cobra would be incorrect."

Thank you,
I always defer to psychotic nutbags when identifying 170,000 year old mythical beasts.


frenchsnake
Posted 27 April 2007 at 10:23 am

J.K. said: "I think in some of these cases over the years (pre and post documentation of it) are legit while others just are not. It's disturbing to think that some could effectively use this as an excuse to get away with things as well. I mean it easily could be used as a cover, seen as a way to save your ass, but also too the sign of a very weak minded peon easily open to being tooled with."

I'm not sure this sort of thing could *not* be legit, unless they were already allied ahead of time. I mean, any kind of cooperation would count, wouldn't it? ... wait, nevermind. I think I'm confused.


Sarge
Posted 27 April 2007 at 11:38 am

Tex said: "Being in the Marine Corps, It kinda makes me wonder if a similar say… strain of Stockholm syndrome is what unites a platoon of recruits - the stress and abuse of it all mixed with your only real tormentor/savior is your Drill Instructor - Interesting thought… Yummm pie"

Sorry Tex, before I joined the Army, I too was a Marine. Think back to boot (being from Texas, I was a Hollywood recruit) did you consider it abuse, or when after doing two hundred pushups, and told to do "Ten more for the Corps", didn't you give a "Devil Dog Bark", and pump out twenty more?
We were damn well fed, had plenty of rest, with the exeption of the "Crucible", and I don't recall being sexually abused.
Nope, there are no similarities between "Brain Washing", and Marine Corps boot. Make my pie blueberry.


ti83
Posted 27 April 2007 at 12:17 pm

tednugentkicksass said: "This just shows how strong, and strange, peoples ability to cope with events "beyond their control" is. They take comfort in whatever they learn to anticipate.

To a lesser degree, it's like that person at work or school who annoys the hell out of you. Eventually you come to expect what they do. Then one day they aren't there, you start to miss them. After a couple of weeks, you remember how annoying they were, but for that brief amount of time you feel a loss.

It's not that simple. Good and evil are just words that different groups of people use to describe different things. The people of SLA didn't think they were evil (quite the opposite), and their way of thinking "rubbed off", not their evil. Misguided beliefs can be transferred, but not any sort underlying "rightness" or "wrongness".

I know this might change this discussion to one of theism vs atheism, but there IS NO GOOD and there IS NO EVIL; there is simply that which is good for a certain group of people, that which is good for another, and that which may be good (in differing amounts) for both. Of course the opposite is true; there is bad, too, and for the most part that which is good for one groupp is bad for another. (and just to be clear here, I'm not an atheist, I just choose to believe in a God of shades of greys.)

Or maybe I'm just an idiot."

Relative good and evil, eh? I agree that society has different views of good and evil, and I'm not trying to press my beliefs on anyone, but I guess I do believe in an absolute good and evil. It is always wrong to kill an innocent person (and I realize the ambiguities involved in using the word "innocent," but that's not the point). It is always wrong to rape or lie or any number of other things. Am I just pulling this out of my butt? I mean, I know I've been raised with some sort of belief system that's hard to shake, but when you start saying that actions can always be good or always be evil depending on how you look at it--that seems like not only a philosophy I can't accept, but one that is dangerous to believe in.


Tex
Posted 27 April 2007 at 01:05 pm

Sarge said: "Sorry Tex, before I joined the Army, I too was a Marine. Think back to boot (being from Texas, I was a Hollywood recruit) did you consider it abuse, or when after doing two hundred pushups, and told to do "Ten more for the Corps", didn't you give a "Devil Dog Bark", and pump out twenty more?

We were damn well fed, had plenty of rest, with the exeption of the "Crucible", and I don't recall being sexually abused.

Nope, there are no similarities between "Brain Washing", and Marine Corps boot. Make my pie blueberry."

First and foremost you are absolutely 100% correct, sexual abuse is NOT apart of what boot camp is.
More or less my argument lies with the Drill Instructors, Did you ever feel a bond with them, hatred being one emotion I felt for sure - but was there not another connection as well? In complete isolation from all what you know - granted letters come from time to time but they just like the articles mentioning of visits to parents - were warranted and issued forth by those same tormentors. Mental, and at times (although rare) physical abuse of the Drill instructors placed you and all other with you in a very keen state of awareness; who was the boss and who were meant to follow. At times you were allowed very small indulgences say, a break from drill or even a chance to rest. And yet at the same time, one mistake or out of place action would yield in a revocation of said pleasantries and a resumption in total chaos.

If anything the Cognitive Dissonance has to come into play, and again nothing I can say is from anything aside from experience. At one time or another a seething hatred for the men in charge of me turned around into an almost god like reverence for the same men. I remember quite a few of the recruits after graduation mentioning how much they wanted to be like their DI's and such...

Whether or not any of this come from a syndrome or not, the thought still is damn interesting in itself. Under these circumstances, where your ability to choose is removed and you for all intensive purposes are left with no choice BUT to conform... Is there such rationalization where you lose the sight of ones self and begin to focus on the group as a whole or at the very least a twisted search for accomplishment in the tormentors eyes? And also - isn't that what you want in a Military Organization... Instant Obedience to Orders?

I dunno - but Pecan pie is also DI :-D


Tex
Posted 27 April 2007 at 01:11 pm

S0122017 said: "*Drill instructor kicks soldier in crotch* "Thank you Sir! Can I have another one Sir!""

And if it gets me Pie Ill consider it lol... :-D


pEhrlich
Posted 27 April 2007 at 01:26 pm

lip_ring said: "If this syndrome is a survival instinct, how did it develop? Did our ancestors make kidnapping, torture, and incorporation into the group a habit? Crazy to think about…"

After reading this article, I am strongly reminded of the Voodoo one (or comments related to voodoo.) Witch doctors would use special poisonous plants to turn people into mindless slaves - drudge workers. They literally had no free will. Could these be related? Similar chemicals in the brain, perhaps?


Nonesuch
Posted 27 April 2007 at 04:51 pm

Radiatidon said: "Though you are correct that the hydra was a multi-headed serpent, it was DeFreeze who founded the SLA and who said “The seven-headed cobra symbol is 170,000 years old…

Since DeFreeze founded the movement, designed the symbol, and named it, to refer to is as anything else than a seven-headed cobra would be incorrect."

Cesium said: "Actually you are correct/incorrect here. DeFreeze did not name it, though it is a seven headed cobra (notice that in the symbol the "heads" each sport a hood), its true name is Naga. The symbol is taken from India. "

okay... as one who doesn't have 170,000 yrs of historical research or much faith in the ranting of psychotic criminals, but has had the image flashed at them on the tv news and then displayed here to look at ... might I suggest it could just as likely be a 7 tailed creature with it's head blindly fumbling around in front of it... And might that, by happy coincidence, account for the relatively short life span of the SLA and the natural selection culling of such a creature in india?
As always ,thanks for the read DI.


borisbadenov
Posted 27 April 2007 at 05:02 pm

Is it just me, or does this make anybody question the point of having a prison system?

Also, while it is beyond the scope of this article, the SLA had a member for a while who had been an employee of the Rand Corporation. He wrote a story about a group using a seven headed serpent as its symbol about a year before the group got together.


Floj
Posted 27 April 2007 at 08:24 pm

Tex said: "And if it gets me Pie Ill consider it lol… :-D"

Looks like someone likes their pie! Pecan's a good choice indeed. That's a Damn Interesting insight on the life of a marine. Wow, it's one of those things that you can't truly understand unless you experience it for yourself. Thanks Tex, for being the biggest part of what keeps our home safe. I wonder; how do you personaly feel about your Drill Instructors style of training? Would you use a similar method if you were a DI?


Tex
Posted 27 April 2007 at 10:28 pm

You know Floj, It was defiantly interesting to say the least, but It does seems to me, that Boot Camp has been ironed out,and all of the training wrinkles are basically gone. After all is said and done, a group of single minded individuals wind up coming together to form one cohesive unit, one that acts together without qualm, without doubt, and without pause ... So yes, I would use a similar method - its still strikes me as a bit close to Stockholm like. Whether my speculation is anything more than just idle thoughts... dunno - All I do know is that Texas Tech Physics should focus less on Mary Shelleys Frankenstein eh Floj? Although a spot on conclusion...;-)


Tex
Posted 27 April 2007 at 11:58 pm

But not to forget our doughy goodness - Three Cheers for fruity, sugary, heart attack inducing 3.14159265...?


Stead311
Posted 28 April 2007 at 06:11 am

Something like this seems so hard to believe. How can abuse overpower your desire for freedom?! I wonder if this has any relevance to slavery and its possible implications. Slaves were victims of many kinds of torture, but perhaps their co-captives were a sense of relief and a dose of common sense. I would be interested in hearing anyones opinion on this.


Floj
Posted 28 April 2007 at 10:30 am

Tex said: "You know Floj, It was defiantly interesting to say the least, but It does seems to me, that Boot Camp has been ironed out,and all of the training wrinkles are basically gone. After all is said and done, a group of single minded individuals wind up coming together to form one cohesive unit, one that acts together without qualm, without doubt, and without pause … So yes, I would use a similar method - its still strikes me as a bit close to Stockholm like. Whether my speculation is anything more than just idle thoughts… dunno - All I do know is that Texas Tech Physics should focus less on Mary Shelleys Frankenstein eh Floj? Although a spot on conclusion…;-)"

er uhhh... yeah.... you see, the Frakenstein movie has... a tela coil somewhere in it... Physics!

That's interesting though. I like your observation too. With the training style they use in the Marines, they've become the best soldiers in the world. It's like a fine pressed shirt. Or pie. Or some of that bullet casing filled Marine pie.

mmmhmm the pi pie. It's a beautiful circle indeed.


sh0cktopus
Posted 28 April 2007 at 10:30 pm

Hey, I've got a website for you people.

http://www.piecouncil.org/

You are welcome to talk about your love of pie all you want over there. Maybe you haven't noticed, but this site is supposed to be damn interesting, and I would venture to say that most of us find the constant banter about the various qualities and varieties of pie to be damn boring.


ballaerina
Posted 28 April 2007 at 11:52 pm

Anyone read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakauer? It's about fundamental Mormon cults, and it talks about Elizabeth Smart. One of the most interesting books I've read in awhile. It breaks down the brainwashing process, and explains how some of the people in the book used religion as a way to manipulate people, i.e. If you don't let me rape you, God will smite you and you'll be doomed to Hell. Etc.


Floj
Posted 29 April 2007 at 01:59 pm

sh0cktopus said: "Hey, I've got a website for you people.


http://www.piecouncil.org/

You are welcome to talk about your love of pie all you want over there. Maybe you haven't noticed, but this site is supposed to be damn interesting, and I would venture to say that most of us find the constant banter about the various qualities and varieties of pie to be damn boring."

Haha! I've been to that site before too! They list some good recipes. However what's the harm in mentioning pie if we put forth an attempt at an insightful comment on the article? Granted I may not always be incredibly insightful or knowedgeable on the topic. Perhaps, if everyone could enjoy a slice of pie now and then the world would be a better place. Cause pie is good. mmmhmm.


Floj
Posted 29 April 2007 at 06:33 pm

Sorry for the 2x post. but that makes me think of this article:

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=417

Very pie like indeed.


rainforest
Posted 30 April 2007 at 01:43 am

@nonesuch...if u want to read more abt the naga ( name for the serpent) pls read

http://www.sacred-texts.com/etc/oph/oph10.htm


Hoekstes
Posted 30 April 2007 at 04:39 am

tednugentkicksass said: "Or maybe I'm just an idiot."

Well, at least we agree on one point.


Hoekstes
Posted 30 April 2007 at 04:54 am

Back to the article... Stockholm syndrome sure is DI, but why didn't I start to like my boss when he was so cruel to neglect my raise and bonus last year? Am I unsusceptable to the syndrome, or am I just too clever for his psycho tactics bs... Oh well, at least he hasn't tried to rape me. . . yet.


ironcross
Posted 30 April 2007 at 06:34 am

HiEv said: "Yeah, I misunderstood that sentence that way for a second myself. "He" is correct, but it's referring to the other SLA member who decided to shoplift, not Hearst. A minor rewrite there for clarity would be nice."

I read that more than once and until you pointed this out I never picked up on it. Thanks for pulling me out of my brain fart


raskolnikov
Posted 30 April 2007 at 07:36 am

has anyone heard of obedience to authority a book about an experiment that Stanley Milgram conducted or the book masters of death by richard rhodes


Spike
Posted 30 April 2007 at 07:54 am

Sabyrne said: "As a side note/observation… how does the title inspire two people to mention Cowboy Bebop, but no one has mentioned the Rolling Stones?"

My bad, how could I have forgotten the original bad boys of Rock. Had to listen to the song again, but did bring to mind the question, Why is evil so attractive and easy to slip into? It's amazing how our minds can justify the means to an end just to survive. Besides Floj's Frankenstein, reminds me of Lord of the Flies. That thin veneer of civilization slips away quickly in survival mode. Pie or no pie, it's all about who lives to fight another day....
Although, Pie with whipped cream does make the world a nicer place....


rev.felix
Posted 30 April 2007 at 09:35 am

sh0cktopus said: "Hey, I've got a website for you people.

http://www.piecouncil.org/

You are welcome to talk about your love of pie all you want over there. Maybe you haven't noticed, but this site is supposed to be damn interesting, and I would venture to say that most of us find the constant banter about the various qualities and varieties of pie to be damn boring."

Or maybe it's just you. Mmmm... Pie.


Nicki the Heinous
Posted 30 April 2007 at 11:18 am

Shocktopus brings up a good point but perhaps he could be a little more understanding. Perhaps the regulars on this site were once kidnapped by a pie and developed a lifelong fondness for, and dedication to, their captor. If this is the case, then the constant pie-banter is not only Damn Interesting, its also damn relevant.

I have a wicked recipe for Apple Caramel Custard Pie . .. mmmmm


shnookylangston
Posted 30 April 2007 at 11:18 am

If she wasn't kidnapped, would her life have gone that way? That's what she gets for living in the land of the fruits and nuts.

Patty Hearst was living a quiet life as a college student, living with her boyfriend Steven Weed at the time of her kidnapping. Her life certainly would not have "gone that way." And "land of the fruits and nuts"? Dude, it's 2007. That wasn't even funny in 1967. If you've never been to California, please stay away.

Sheesh.


Ronback
Posted 30 April 2007 at 11:53 am

ah...WEAK Minded fools...wait...my wife does some of those things.


Tink
Posted 30 April 2007 at 07:13 pm

Nicki the Heinous said: "Shocktopus brings up a good point but perhaps he could be a little more understanding. Perhaps the regulars on this site were once kidnapped by a pie and developed a lifelong fondness for, and dedication to, their captor. If this is the case, then the constant pie-banter is not only Damn Interesting, its also damn relevant.


I have a wicked recipe for Apple Caramel Custard Pie . .. mmmmm"

You Got It!
All us crusty ol' regulars, The almost un holy cult of Alan Bellows' Damned Interesting!.com has the Stockholm syndrome.
We all wear tin foil hats,when on site, (made from pie pans 'cause they are more durable) sooo we all gotta eat a lotta pie to empty the pans to keep the aliens and voices away. They are really good at keeping the secret gov. angencies from reading our thoughts and stealing our pie too. If you think I'm kidding, just go back to a few months ago and read the comments of evryone jonesing for fresh articles. LOL
Shhhh, now, don't tell any one else. ;P

Oh yeah, please feel free to share that yummy sounding recipe with us!


badger
Posted 30 April 2007 at 08:11 pm

First of all, it's "Thank you sir, may I have another!". Read a book.

Second, weak minded people today who have not undergone abuse align themselves with the goals of Islamo-facists. There is no excuse. What was this incredible abuse suffered by Hearst? Poor rich kid turned criminal. If daddy has enough money, all's forgiven.

It is all clearly a plot by the Canadians.


badger
Posted 30 April 2007 at 08:14 pm

shnookylangston:

you're right, it's not funny. i've been to CA, it is sad. bunch of weak selfish whacko losers. Hippies suck. They say they want to save the world, but all they do is smoke pot and smell bad.


badger
Posted 30 April 2007 at 08:17 pm

raskolnikov said: "has anyone heard of obedience to authority a book about an experiment that Stanley Milgram conducted or the book masters of death by richard rhodes"

yes. this is the nature of original sin. people are basically selfish, petty and mean spirited. that is why when someone does something truly decent, it is like a slap in the face in this society. Thank God I don't live in Canada.


Floj
Posted 30 April 2007 at 11:10 pm

badger said: "yes. this is the nature of original sin. people are basically selfish, petty and mean spirited. that is why when someone does something truly decent, it is like a slap in the face in this society. Thank God I don't live in Canada."

Please don't take this the wrong way, but would you mind providing examples of your experiances of such a terrible world? I'm honestly just curious.

I said this before, but I still think the population of the world could use a slice of pie sometimes. I'd love to see people resolve issues over a meal... and pie for desert. Of course we'd hand around a healthy scoop of whip cream. mmmhmm


Circlehead
Posted 01 May 2007 at 02:54 am

This has nothing to do with the article but I have a question about the site.

Sometimes the menu bar at the top changes into this light blue thingy with the words 'narrow display mode' at the side. The change of design doesn't really bother me (though I think the other way looked a lot better) but the annoying thing is that in this new display mode there's no 'sections' option. So can't chose from the various categories or pick a ramdom article.

How do I change it back to the old way?

Ps. Love the site.


Gerry Matlack
Posted 01 May 2007 at 04:46 am

Circlehead said: "Sometimes the menu bar at the top changes into this light blue thingy with the words 'narrow display mode' at the side.

How do I change it back to the old way?"

It's been my experience the widening the browser window, if not expanding it to full-screen, does the trick. I've seen it toggle between the two as I resize the window on machines I've used at home and at work.


Spike
Posted 01 May 2007 at 07:40 am

badger said: "yes. this is the nature of original sin. people are basically selfish, petty and mean spirited. that is why when someone does something truly decent, it is like a slap in the face in this society. Thank God I don't live in Canada."

Whoa, Badger, who pissed in your cereal...The nature of original sin is that there is evil and cruelty in the world, but that is our personal choice. We have the free will to choose to do evil to each other or to be kind and decent. Unfortunately, there are people in the world who do choose to be evil. I would prefer to believe that there are more people in the world who are decent, good and kind and do not consider that to be a slap in the face of society.
As far as Patty Hearst is concerned, there were reports that she was kept in a closet, suffered rape, beatings and torture before she "joined the cause". We weren't there, we don't know what happened to her. Until you are in such a situation, how do you know how you would react? Her situation is truly beyond my personal comprehension. Maybe I'm too soft hearted, but I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt and not judge her because she came from a rich family. Last time I checked, bad things can happen to all types of people. Evil tends not to discriminate.
Badger, I respect your right to have your opinions and I do see your point, but maybe the world would be a better place if we chose to look for the good in others instead of focusing on the evil. If the major media considered good news newsworthy, maybe we would all have a more positive outlook and cheer for what is good and decent.
Now I think I will treat myself to a nice cherry pie and coffee, with extra whipped cream.


Nicki the Heinous
Posted 01 May 2007 at 07:52 am

Badger,

Canadians are much too complacent to plot anything on such a scale. Complacency is also why they are such excellent scapegoats for those as narrow-minded as you.


Marisa Brook
Posted 01 May 2007 at 03:05 pm

Well, if it is all a plot by the Canadians, then the author's having exposed it probably constitutes treason.


Tink
Posted 01 May 2007 at 06:28 pm

Marisa Brook said: "Well, if it is all a plot by the Canadians, then the author's having exposed it probably constitutes treason."

LOL, GG, u Go Girl! Alot of very interesting comments on this one. Thank you,Marisa for a DI! read. :)


Tink
Posted 01 May 2007 at 06:44 pm

Floj said: "Please don't take this the wrong way, but would you mind providing examples of your experiances of such a terrible world? I'm honestly just curious.


I said this before, but I still think the population of the world could use a slice of pie sometimes. I'd love to see people resolve issues over a meal… and pie for desert. Of course we'd hand around a healthy scoop of whip cream. mmmhmm"

Darling Floj! I wish I had a musical note to type in here:>

""I'd like to buy the world a home and furnish it with love,

Grow apple trees and honey bees, and snow white turtle doves.

I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony,

I'd like to buy the world a Coke and keep it company.
I'ts the real thing Coca-Cola!""

Just like you dear, the real thing. Sweet to your bones. :)


Plank
Posted 02 May 2007 at 12:22 am

The Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon strikes again. I watched a documentary on Patty Hearst just yesterday.
Damn Interesting article as always!


telkontar
Posted 03 May 2007 at 09:39 am

Not having experienced it, it is difficult to criticize any response. I, like Iron Cross, thought of Die Hard as my first impression.

While I suppose that abuse and "brainwashing" may eventually turn nearly anyone, Vietnam prison camps seem to indicate that internal character can protect a captive. The book "Deep Survival" also analyzes some psychological aspects of surviving ordeals.
I much prefer the 9/11 theory when being held captive: "Let's roll!" I cannot imagine giving up my self identity.


Sneeps
Posted 03 May 2007 at 11:11 pm

I think Stockholm syndrome is actually a pretty logical defense mechanism of the mind. You're under constant stress and threat from a person, so why not try becoming their "friend"? If you show that you no longer wish to defy them, they should stop hurting you. Once they trust you and you become part of their group, you won't be in danger anymore. Of course, this has the repercussion of accepting views that you would normally find abhorrent, but the mind's techniques for stress management aren't affected by things such as morality. Humanizing a captor allows you to make what happens more manageable. People may be shocked about cases like Hearst, but she did survive to the end. People do all sorts of things to manage stress, like go into shock, or disassociate. It's like when rabbits go "tharn". It's good that things like this are brought into light, because they can help people understand themselves if they get into these kinds of situations, and perhaps find the best way to persevere.


tednugentkicksass
Posted 04 May 2007 at 12:05 am

Hoekstes said: "Back to the article… Stockholm syndrome sure is DI, but why didn't I start to like my boss when he was so cruel to neglect my raise and bonus last year? Am I unsusceptable to the syndrome, or am I just too clever for his psycho tactics bs… Oh well, at least he hasn't tried to rape me. . . yet."

Hey, thanks for being a dick, I simply put forth an idea to try to further the discussion. I'm sorry if anecdotal imagery doesn't work for you, but don't P.M.S. on me for using it. Maybe you should start working harder or find a different job-- you know... try to better yourself instead of bringing others down. It seems that others found my interpretation of this syndrome as a defence mechanism somewhat insightful. I realize you can't make everybody happy, but I don't expect to be hopped upon for a hurredly written comment on an interesting article.

The moral relativism I put forth is only my belief, and I try not to hoist it upon others in my personal life, but I said it and I apologise for belittling anybody (it's my mercurial nature, I swear).

P.S. I AM an idiot, I'm only 22, to try to express myself in any public forum and not allow for my own self-doubt would be the cruelest type of hubris to inflict on myself ( I have a wealth of intelligence and knowledge {ironic statement anyone?}, but a relatively tiny amount of life-experience to draw upon). By the way, I know I over-parenthesise.


kidcool
Posted 05 May 2007 at 04:05 pm

Hearst was HOtt... if i was her captor, she would love it!!


KJK::Hyperion
Posted 07 May 2007 at 05:18 pm

Stead311 said: "Something like this seems so hard to believe. How can abuse overpower your desire for freedom?! I wonder if this has any relevance to slavery and its possible implications. Slaves were victims of many kinds of torture, but perhaps their co-captives were a sense of relief and a dose of common sense. I would be interested in hearing anyones opinion on this."

Simple: you'd just overrationalize your present condition, to the point of seeing right through it, and misdirect your desire of freedom elsewhere, possibly somewhere way more frivolous. I'll bet you anything our grand-grandchildren, generations from now, will hardly believe how could we put up with so much control in our daily lives and still call ourselves "free"


gush
Posted 09 May 2007 at 08:51 am

spam


gush
Posted 09 May 2007 at 08:52 am

spam


gush
Posted 09 May 2007 at 08:53 am

spam


Freet
Posted 16 May 2007 at 11:30 am

Thanks for playing gush.

Anywho....As was mentioned by several in their replies, One really doesn't have a clue how one would react to stimuli unless one is subjected to it. For expample, a drop of water hitting your forhead isn't terribly unpleasant but, from what I understand anyway, a very effective torture technique involves nothing more than this. Water repeatedly dropped on the forhead.

So who is to say how or to what extent any stimulae, be it physical or mental, might effect a persons ability to perceive right from wrong? While I would like to think that I could not be persuaded to completely alter my moral standards, I can't honestly say that I could not be convinced that black is white if I were correctly manipulated.

Was Patty Hurst a puppet or a willing participant? I honestly don't know. The thing is, most likely, neither do any of you.


been there done that
Posted 17 May 2007 at 12:22 pm

yep it's easy to be turned over to the darkside. you are taken from what you know, sleep deprived, food deprived, deprived of everything but what your captor/s say. you are usually sexually, emotionally and physically abused. they become your only connection to the world and you become dependent on them. they become your lifeline and you begin to believe in them because if you don't you fear they will kill you. you would even protect them with your own life if they are threatened.

brainwashing is powerful and doesn't happen to only the weak.

been there done that and survived.


spitshine
Posted 19 May 2007 at 12:57 pm

That's definitely a scary thought and yet it hits close to home. If there is a way of survival I think everyone would follow the person that is torturing you whether you choose that path or are forced into that situation. I really liked this article; I heard about Stockholm syndrome and really wondered what it was all about.


penguinlove
Posted 29 May 2007 at 07:50 am

The penguins are coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


MiladyM
Posted 08 August 2007 at 07:27 am

Floj said: "Wow that's Damn Interesting! It's amazing how people will chnge in extreme environments like being held prisoner by a captor. I like how you propose that taking such action could be a survival instinct. As for Shaw, it kind of reminds me of Frankenstein by Mary Shelly. Good book. The monster only saw hate so he only knew hate. He spent all of his time in isolation cause everyone he came in contact with either ran or tried to kill him. It was interesting how the doctor created a monster not by giving it life, but by showing it pure hatred and rejection. Interesting premise. Perhaps, it was Mary Shelly's analysis on human tendencies, and not a horror story. Prhaps…

Oh! That title remindes me of Cowboy Bebop. Good show. Interesting episode. Like pie."

They do Not like being held captive... Scared to death more like it. If you are abused enough, if you do not go insane, then your mind lives in fear of what I call the "What if'" Syndrome . " "What if"...I tell someone about this person , they said they would kill me..... "What if"... I try to run and they kill my children or Mom and Dad.........

I know how these people think. I was a victim of abuse from both of my parents as a child. I tried many times to tell my teachers, friends and even a police officer AND a Therapist... ..My teachers told me basically if I was a better child, I wouldn't be beat. My friends were like..wow!
The police man whom found me passed out from a suicide attempt said to me and I quote " Well maybe if you followed your parents directions , you wouldn't have your ass beat."!
The Therapist whom I was seeing because I was in placed in the mental ward of the Hospital for trying to kill myself ( I had just turned 13) .. asked me if I wanted to go into a Foster home because of the abuse . I begged him to put me in one." The next day I was released to my PARENTS!....After a while you give up and no longer trust people any more.


Watcher
Posted 29 March 2008 at 09:08 am

A little monkey in the works. Any thoughts on whether this might also be how dogma and religion work? Submit or suffer eternal damnation.. We've discussed military indoctrination, why not faith? And before anyone condemns me to to Inquisition I believe strongly in God. I only lack conviction in organised religion.


Greg White
Posted 14 October 2014 at 03:28 pm

In the Edeet Ravel novel Held a teenage girl named Chloe Mills is kidnapped while in Greece and ends up with the Stockholm syndrome.


END OF COMMENTS
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